SMR prices vs. your experiences

[jg8422]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Again, couldn't the same thing be said about not purchasing a PSA membership and piggy backing off others submissions? If only 100 people do it, that's $10K in lost revenue by PSA. If a 1000 people do it, that's $100K in lost revenue. And so forth. I'm still asking somebody to explain why it's okay to take advantage of somebody else's PSA membership, but not a VCP membership? Nobody can give a valid explanation.

And that's just one example of splitting a membership. I can give several others that most of us have done.

David,

You will be waiting a long time b/c you are absolutely correct! I know the moral police don't like the idea and that is fine. But, if you take the viewpoint that it is wrong, then just make sure you are consistent and NEVER do anythng that could be considered "wrong." I would say that would even include paying someone a good deal less than fair market value for a card b/c he just needed some quick cash. Would the "moral police" say to the person "I know you only want $100 for the card, but I am going to give you $300 b/c that would only be fair and the right thing to do?" I doubt it! What say you moral police???

I do acknowledge that it isn't "the right thing to do," but to be completely honest, I would still sleep fine at night if I used someone else's login to access the VCP site. In this hobby/industry, there are much bigger fish to fry in terms of dishonesty.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Scott,

I understand you get perks (freebies) with your PSA membership. That's not the point. The point is that it's just not fair for someone to pay for a membership so they can take advantage of the monthly specials, when somebody else gets to take advantage of those same monthly specials without paying the membership fee.

********************

Jeff,

You are exactly right and that is my point. I read some of the posts on this board and they are quite funny in that their moral compass is all over the place. I've heard people say it's cheating PayPal out of their fees to use PayPal gift, but these same people have no problem working a deal outside of eBay for a card they saw advertised on eBay. In other words, it's not okay to screw PayPal out of their fees, but its okay to screw eBay out of theirs.

I'm disgusted with the "moral police" around here and their lack of moral consistency.

[rdixon1208]

Look, I'm not trying to be the moral police. I've looked up cards on VCP for a friend. I've used Paypal gift. I've bought cards on the side that were for sale on ebay.

In each instance, I felt like what I was doing wasn't "too bad." Maybe it's because each of those companies make money off of me. At times quite a bit. So working the system to get a better deal doesn't keep me up at night.

In this case, we're talking about not paying for the service at all. It's all kind of like stealing, but this just seems worse to me. Maybe it's because I know that VCP is a small company, where ebay/paypal are huge.

I mean, why don't we all get one membership and share the password? If enough of us do it, we may be able to put VCP out of business.

You have a point in saying (or insinuating) that if you ever do anything wrong on any level, you should never say that what someone else is doing is wrong. Does that mean that if I buy a card off ebay that's listed in the wrong section for a steal of a price without telling the seller, I should never be able to call someone out for shill bidding? There are different levels of wrong.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

Look, I'm not trying to be the moral police. I've looked up cards on VCP for a friend. I've used Paypal gift. I've bought cards on the side that were for sale on ebay.

In each instance, I felt like what I was doing wasn't "too bad." Maybe it's because each of those companies make money off of me. At times quite a bit. So working the system to get a better deal doesn't keep me up at night.

In this case, we're talking about not paying for the service at all. It's all kind of like stealing, but this just seems worse to me. Maybe it's because I know that VCP is a small company, where ebay/paypal are huge.

I mean, why don't we all get one membership and share the password? If enough of us do it, we may be able to put VCP out of business.

You have a point in saying (or insinuating) that if you ever do anything wrong on any level, you should never say that what someone else is doing is wrong. Does that mean that if I buy a card off ebay that's listed in the wrong section for a steal of a price without telling the seller, I should never be able to call someone out for shill bidding? There are different levels of wrong.

Robert,

The bottom line is that we're talking lost revenue - whether it's using PayPal gift, working a deal outside of eBay, piggy backing off someone else's PSA submission or going in together to purchase a VCP membership.

It's either right or wrong. There's no gray area here. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's okay to do it sometimes (because that company already made quite a bit of money off you), but not other times (because it's a small company). At least that's what I'm hearing here.

I do all the things you mentioned. I use PayPal gift (as a buyer and seller). I work deals outside of eBay. I look up VCP for others who didn't pay for a membership. I've piggy backed on others subs w/o purchasing a PSA membership. Etc. Here's the difference. I am consistent. Yes, there are different levels of wrong. However, wrong is still WRONG. I'm just tired of all the people here saying what is wrong and what is right and hearing their moral point of view when they do wrong things themselves.

[rdixon1208]

David,

While you make really good points, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You could say that surfing the internet at work is stealing. The company is buying your time, and you're spending it on something else without them knowing.

To me, that's not the same thing as physically stealing something from someone.

So IMO there is a grey area. That being said, I really do think you make some very strong points. No matter how I feel, it's probably not for me to pass judgement publicly.

Anyway.....enough of this.....anyone got a T210 Hornsby they want to sell me? Please.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

David,

While you make really good points, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You could say that surfing the internet at work is stealing. The company is buying your time, and you're spending it on something else without them knowing.

To me, that's not the same thing as physically stealing something from someone.

So IMO there is a grey area.

Robert, great point. Sometimes I surf the internet at work. Yes, it is stealing company time, but I agree with you it that it is different than actually physically stealing something.

However, they are both wrong - they're just wrong on different levels. When I said gray area, I meant gray as in either right or wrong (not the level of wrong). So there really isn't a gray area there if we can admit that both are wrong - they're just different levels of wrong.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Robert, great point. Sometimes I surf the internet at work. Yes, it is stealing company time, but I agree with you it that it is different than actually physically stealing something.

However, they are both wrong - they're just wrong on different levels. When I said gray area, I meant gray as in either right or wrong (not the level of wrong). So there really isn't a gray area there if we can admit that both are wrong - they're just different levels of wrong.

It depends on your views on "buying your time". Some view it as, the company is basically paying you to be ready and available when they have work to give you. Or, we're giving you this much work, and you've got this long to do it. There is always some down time in any job. As long as all quotas and deadlines are met, and the company is happy with your production, then you're not really stealing their time.. Sure, you're not doing as much as you can, but you are doing all that is asked of you..

[jg8422]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Robert,

The bottom line is that we're talking lost revenue - whether it's using PayPal gift, working a deal outside of eBay, piggy backing off someone else's PSA submission or going in together to purchase a VCP membership.

It's either right or wrong. There's no gray area here. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's okay to do it sometimes (because that company already made quite a bit of money off you), but not other times (because it's a small company). At least that's what I'm hearing here.

I do all the things you mentioned. I use PayPal gift (as a buyer and seller). I work deals outside of eBay. I look up VCP for others who didn't pay for a membership. I've piggy backed on others subs w/o purchasing a PSA membership. Etc. Here's the difference. I am consistent. Yes, there are different levels of wrong. However, wrong is still WRONG. I'm just tired of all the people here saying what is wrong and what is right and hearing their moral point of view when they do wrong things themselves.

Well said!!!

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Scott,

I understand you get perks (freebies) with your PSA membership. That's not the point. The point is that it's just not fair for someone to pay for a membership so they can take advantage of the monthly specials, when somebody else gets to take advantage of those same monthly specials without paying the membership fee.

********************

Jeff,

You are exactly right and that is my point. I read some of the posts on this board and they are quite funny in that their moral compass is all over the place. I've heard people say it's cheating PayPal out of their fees to use PayPal gift, but these same people have no problem working a deal outside of eBay for a card they saw advertised on eBay. In other words, it's not okay to screw PayPal out of their fees, but its okay to screw eBay out of theirs.

I'm disgusted with the "moral police" around here and their lack of moral consistency.

Good point!

It may not be the most honest thing to do, but let's face it...none of us are perfect and this is a VERY minor issue if any at all. I believe if you wanted to split it and could, go for it...if you feel like you are cheating them, then don't do it. Like someone stated before, no one is losing sleep over this and I'm sure, if you can, people are already doing this and they are still in business and doing fine.