My impromptu chat with Joe O.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

[mr2686]

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Down goes Frazier...Down goes Frazier!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Leon, it was awful watching that arrest at the National and put me in such a crappy mood about the hobby. But somehow I managed to soldier on and despite my negative feelings about fraud in the hobby I still spent 11K on cards in the past ten days. I just want you to know that some of us Negative Nellies still have disposable income. And I read the shit out of those banner ads. I read them so much I think they're burned into my eyeballs. Carry on.

[TONY-III]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

Then I take back everything I said..... I love ya' man.....Thanks for advertising. Quite honestly I can't keep up with every one of ya'll but did get to meet many at the National. Truth be known I almost have a phobia with remembering names but am damn good remembering at faces .

I have an overwhelming desire to let folks hang themselves if they want to. That being said there will never be anonymity allowed when arguing with or berating others....

Something tells me we are actually in full agreement on just about everything. I too speak my mind and have put my foot in my mouth on occasion (see last post)......You have contributed but have only started 2 threads....which is actually more than most members probably have. Most folks don't want to get into the fray. Me, I jump in and ask questions later. You would think I would know better.

Jeff- I can't say I was joyous about the arrest at the National but I am of a different opinion. I am glad it happened and I think the guy should have been paraded around the room twice, with trumpeters trumpeting in front of him. I absolutely think that sort of thing can help act as a deterrent. I wish there were no fraud in the hobby but, to me, it's nice to know someone is watching. best regards

[botn]

...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

...

LOL....no doubt.....still trying to get my foot out of my mouth.....

[Misunderestimated]

I think that for the most part PSA (and SGC and Beckett Grading) are "a necessary evil" and their leaders (like Joe Orlando) are well-intentioned. Joe has always impressed me as interested in the hobby's well-being. He obviously recognizes that the success of PSA is inextricably linked to that of the hobby. He is a good cheerleader (for want of a better word) for the hobby and works hard at it. My understanding is that he was an enthusiastic hobbiest before he came to PSA and that this enthusiasm drives him today.
That said, he works for PSA not the hobby and when the interests of the two are in conflict PSA pays his salary.
Ultimately my experiences are consistent with what Leon wrote at the beginning...

Perhaps PSA (and SGC/BGS) could offer tamper proof holders at a higher price point (presumably they would cost the grading companis more).... Or maybe these holders should simply be used whenever a card is valued over $1000 (or something) since PSA/SGC etc. charge more to grade them anyway.
---
if someone already suggested this I'm sorry for not giving credit I started to skim the thread around page 3....

[theseeker]

Joe Orlando always struck me as a glorified ID braclet, pinky ring, and white shoe wearing used car salesman. His company reflects that image I have off him. In no way good for the hobby, IMHO. And Joe Orlando is in it for himself. Evoking this ceaseless self-promoter in the same breath as the selfless Jefferson Burdick is just plain wrong, again IMHO.

And on this board as with any other, it's not negativity for negitivities sake, it's honest emotion on a hot button topic.

And you want a list of guys that are good for the hobby you can start with this board, where members freely share their knowledge and passion for the hobby. I've benefitted emensely from it. And Leon heads the list.

[glchen]

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed. Old time collectors know how to handle cards without damaging them. Newer collectors are worried that the card they bought instead of a big screen TV will depreciate to 0 value if their toddler gets a hold of it. It's always been a topic on how card collecting may be dying as a hobby because newer collectors aren't as interested in it. However, I firmly believe that TPG's like PSA do bring the newer collectors back into the hobby. They give collectors a comfort that they're not getting scammed or throwing their money away. And for PSA, even though their registry is often held in derision here, it allows more entertainment for some collectors to be able to see and organize all of their cards in the registry and compete with others on it. I've never talked or corresponded with Joe Orlando, but I believe he's trying to promote the interest of the hobby as best as he can. Obviously, he's not perfect, but very few of us are.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by glchen

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed.

I bolded the part that is such a big positive that grading provides.
And btw, all the things that people are saying here about cards have been said by old time collectors about comics.
The grading companies level the playing field and help to provide a comfort level that allows the less savy and knowledgeable collectors to feel confident that the card they are purchasing is what it is advertised as.
Im new to collecting vintage cards and without SGC and other grading companies I very seriously doubt I would buy a Mickey Mantle or other higher dollar card with my level of hobby knowledge at the moment. It was much the same way when I started collecting comics. As I learned and became much more savvy in the comics hobby I didnt need to rely on CGC nearly as much. One day I believe the same will happen as I learn more about cards. Are there drawbacks to pro graders? Sure, card prices for HG cards have increased (not because dealers are scared to loose money on a flip) but because the market has changed for HG cards. Or low pop cards as well. Why would a dealer let money leave the table just because the dynamic has changed? Not a good business practice. That makes old timers complain. Did it in comics, did it in cards, and I would assume in coins or whatever. But think about the positives:
1-Much more accurate and consistent grading of cards. Protects the buyer from spending NM money on a Mantle that actually grades EX. Let a new collector get burnt once or twice like that and there is a good chance they dont keep collecting
2-Bringing in more collectors to the hobby. That is never a bad thing. The confidence that grading brings to people making purchases is not to be underestimated.
3-Cutting down on altered cards-That card you dropped $500 on? Yeah, sorry, its got color and a trimmed edge. That tobacco card you spent $40. Sorry, its been trimmed. To me that is such a huge positive that it outweighs the negatives. If i buy a card lets say raw, and have it graded and comes back as recolored, i know have recourse. First, I know that it is something that it is not. Then I can go back to the dealer and discuss terms with them. A good dealer will make it right. Without that I either get burned buying it, keeping it in my collection (because i didnt want an altered card) and if Im lucky I get burned again when I go to sell. Because someone else had the hobby experience to recognize what I couldnt.

Some people will say "well dont buy something if you dont know what you are looking for" That really translates into "i got burned when I started and now i know a lot about the hobby, you should have to learn the hard way just like I did" and by the way "got off my damn lawn ya rotten stinkin' kid"

I really enjoy collecting cards and graded cards provides me with the confidence to buy cards I otherwise wouldnt. And if a hobby wants to continue and be relevant, then it needs people coming into the hobby. Grading has done that.

[Misunderestimated]

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

[glchen]

One thing brought up in this thread and others that I find interesting yet debateable is the idea of "freeing a card from its plastic prison." It's another part of the raw vs slabbed debate, yet it's similar to the Toy Story idea where inanimate objects have feelings. I can understand this. There have been more than one instance in the dark of the night where I've been caught talking to my cards as if they're dear friends. And again, it is the owner's prerogative to do whatever he sees fit with his cards, whether it is to put them in an album or a bike spoke or a dart board. I know the feeling of opening a gum pack and touching my cards. You can feel the texture of cards in your hand. It's nice. You can sort and organize how you want. I've handled my pre-war cards also, and it's a different feeling. They are seldom the high grade of modern cards. When you do hold an excellent or near mint pre-war card raw, it's a feeling of awe as you wonder how it could have survived in this condition for so long.

However the phrase "freeing a card from its plastic prison" speaks more of the card's feelings than the owner's. I can see some parts of the argument where I think card owners can believe this. It's an airtight seal in the slab, and the cards cannot breathe. You can easily imagine a live card suffocating inside there. It is an unnatural environment where cards were not meant to be when first issued. Cards were meant to be played with, traded, and enjoyed. Cards may want to be right next to another card, raw to raw, similar to the skin to skin recommendations when caring for newborns.

However, I still don't know if that's what cards really want. It's back to the Toy Story argument where cards are similar to toys, and they want to exist for as long as possible, to be enjoyed their owners as much as possible. And cards may even have a selfish side where they want to exist in their current condition as long as possible. Cards do not want to be thrown away. They don't want to be tossed in the trash accidentally or on purpose. However, if you slab a card, there's much less chance that it will get tossed. Most collectors scoff when a 10 cent card is put into a $5 slab. That is an incredible waste of value, and they are right. However, what do the cards think? Are they proud that they are now in a nice safe slab? If they are in an SGC slab, better to show off their best attributes. If they are in a Beckett slab, this new home is bulletproof! For PSA, they can brag that they're now worth a little more in this slab than the others. I've holdered many a hideous raw card that had no right be slabbed. In a way, I felt like I was saving that card. Now that it was slabbed, it would be appreciated a lot more than when it were raw. It may have writing, holes, horrible creases, but now it had its own shiny slab to show off in. I think it knew it didn't deserve to be there, but it was glad it was. Now there would be more chance people would look at it and enjoy and less than it would be thrown away. For higher grade cards, I think the feeling is the similar. They want to keep their sharp corners, their uncreased surface. They've already survived a hundred odd years like this, and they want another hundred. An inside a slab, they are much more likely to keep their condition.

A card inside a slab can be enjoyed almost as much as a raw one. The only difference being you cannot feel the card. However, it only has two sides, so you can look and enjoy it just as much. I think that slabbing cards and coins would be similar in these respects. However, I do see more of an argument for comics. You can easily say that comics are meant to be read. And that comics want to be read. Inside a slab, you can only see the front and back cover; you can't read it. Therefore, I think there is more of an argument for freeing comics from their slab prison than for cards.

I recently purchased a W519-1 Ruth card with a blue background to go with my maroon and red/pink backgrounds. When the seller sold the card to me, he said he was glad it was going to a good home with my other Ruth's. It was slabbed, but regardless, I think it was happy also to go from one good place where it was appreciated to another, and where it could exchange its own war stories with the other cards.

[teetwoohsix]

I haven't met Joe so no comment on the type of person he is from me, but as far as his company goes it would be nice if he put a little more oversight in the grading department. Seems to be way too many inconsistancies with the grades of cards.

I understand all TPG's view tons of cards and are bound to make mistakes, but I see a lot more coming from PSA than SGC or BVG. Just my opinion, that's all.

Sincerely, Clayton