National prices?

[Leon]

As I was going through my cards I am taking to the National to sell, I was putting prices on them. I adjusted most of them down because of the economy. Any thoughts on what you think prices will be like? Will they be like the ebay BIN museum pieces, or more like a real sale with fair prices? I spoke with a large ebay and website dealer earlier today and he said he thought the economy might take a toll on buyer's budgets. I concurred but said I feel the less seldom seen cards and good buys will still do ok. The 2-4 yrs old inventory with no adjustment in prices will be back next year .

[Kzoo]

First of all, I'm happy when dealers actually put prices on their cards, instead of wasting everyone's time when they have to look something up. Leon, your table with make me happy (especially since you're already dropping prices!!).

I think many dealers should/must/will have competitive/flexible prices on cards at the National due to the economy and the fact they have to pay for their expensive tables and lodging. If not, they'll be the ones complaining about sales on Sunday afternoon. In my opinion, it will be a good year for buyers that have some patience and some extra cash. I'm personally looking forward to buying some good stuff!

Matt

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

First of all, I'm happy when dealers actually put prices on their cards, instead of wasting everyone's time when they have to look something up. Leon, your table with make me happy (especially since you're already dropping prices!!).

I think many dealers should/must/will have competitive/flexible prices on cards at the National due to the economy and the fact they have to pay for their expensive tables and lodging. If not, they'll be the ones complaining about sales on Sunday afternoon. In my opinion, it will be a good year for buyers that have some patience and some extra cash. I'm personally looking forward to buying some good stuff!

Matt

And btw, I get the idea behind putting prices on the backs of the cards so dealers can have dialogue. The prices on my cards will all be on the fronts. That is always a tiny pet peeve (not a big one) of mine.

[calvindog]

Leon, you're a cock-eyed optimist, much like Billy Mumphrey. As you noted, the BIN ebay prices are still insane; there's no reason to believe that the dealers at the National -- most if not all sell on ebay -- will suddenly be hit with a dose of reality and adjust their prices. I was pretty stunned by how crazy the prices were last year and I expect more of the same. Some dealers are realistic during a negotiation and some just are not.

[bbcard1]

There are a lot of dealers who don't realize they are collectors but their pricing makes them that way. I hate not making the national this year, and I certainly always spend all my money, but I have not found the national to be a very good buying experience.

I would expect realized prices on mid grade stuff to be down a bit.

[Big Ben]

Hey Leon, what is your table number at the National? If you are there on Sunday I'll be certain to stop by.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, you're a cock-eyed optimist, much like Billy Mumphrey.

Leon, just don't get mixed up in world diplomacy or international intrigue. The stakes are just too high.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

Hey Leon, what is your table number at the National? If you are there on Sunday I'll be certain to stop by.

We will be at table 538 but not positive about setting up on Sunday.....

[slidekellyslide]

FWIW a friend of mine just got back from setting up at the Cooperstown show and said he had his best sales in years.

[bobbyw8469]

I have never been to a "National", but at the local card show in Raleigh, some of the dealers have high enough prices, they make Ebay look like Big Lots.......When I see some of the prices, I just can't even dicker, they are so absurdly high.....

[ullmandds]

I'm expecting the majority of dealers to have their cards ridiculously overpriced...with a small % of sellers within reason...or just slightly overpriced!

[Jewish-collector]

There are a bunch of dealers that really want to sell their cards, so they price them very fair.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, you're a cock-eyed optimist, much like Billy Mumphrey. As you noted, the BIN ebay prices are still insane; there's no reason to believe that the dealers at the National -- most if not all sell on ebay -- will suddenly be hit with a dose of reality and adjust their prices. I was pretty stunned by how crazy the prices were last year and I expect more of the same. Some dealers are realistic during a negotiation and some just are not.

I would be surprised if there are more than a handful of folks with realistic/reasonable prices.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would be surprised if there are more than a handful of folks with realistic/reasonable prices.

Agreed. I think that the great majority overprice by far; some come down to market prices if begged considerably.

[camlov2]

Originally Posted by calvindog

As you noted, the BIN ebay prices are still insane; there's no reason to believe that the dealers at the National -- most if not all sell on ebay -- will suddenly be hit with a dose of reality and adjust their prices.

However... seeing someone holding dollar bills might make a reduced sale more tempting to someone who hasn't sold items in a while.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by camlov2

However... seeing someone holding dollar bills might make a reduced sale more tempting to someone who hasn't sold items in a while.

The psychology works both ways. Sellers know buyers don't want to come home with nothing but a Net 54 pin, so they are banking on people being willing to overpay for that card they really want.

[4815162342]

I would agree. The captive audience of buyers with cash burning holes in their pockets trumps the casual eBay window shopper.

[FUBAR]

My Motto

If you don't like my prices, send over your wife and we can dicker!

[HOF Yankees]

before anything i'll look at every table, decide later what to get and see how much i want to spend, hopefully i can find some steals but there might not be much

[esd10]

i wish i could go to the national show but i'm poor and they never come to ohio but with prices on ebay are not realistic they are way over priced in most cases and the economy has really taken a hit and you can see it in every facit of every market except precious metals.

[HOF Yankees]

esd- i hear ya, with myself getting married in a year, my vintage baseball has been downgraded but still love my vintage and yet i still have fun with them, as far as prices i just buy what i can afford. Nationals I hope is good to me

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by esd10

i wish i could go to the national show but i'm poor and they never come to ohio but with prices on ebay are not realistic they are way over priced in most cases and the economy has really taken a hit and you can see it in every facit of every market except precious metals.

I'm poor too. I don't have much money to spend on cards there, but at least I attend. BTW - The National does get to Cleveland on a regular basis, or at least it did before Baltimore replaced it.

[HOF Yankees]

i am glad im not the only in the poor category in vintage

[Rich Klein]

1) If you can afford to go; then by all means go to the National or if another larger show in your area.

2) When it comes to vintage; once you pass the tables with nothing but museum quality material; there are many places where reasonably priced vintage can be found. Usually they will be in boxes slightly to the side and say discount box, etc. Some dealers with better material also have those discount boxes

3) Because vintage is more expensive;; there is a greater likelihood that dealers will bring their lower quality material in that.

4) I like the idea of pricing cards on the FRONT. The reason is fairness to your buyer. Everyone knows the starting point. I know that I have heard from some dealers over the years that the reason they don't price their cards is so if they buy something the collector does not say (I see you have that for "x") Well at a National; the idea of getting the ultimate steal is probably not going to work.


Regards
Riich

[HOF Yankees]

i agree prices shown are good, i get turned off when i priced of something needs to be looked up

[tbob]

There are some dealers at the National who are some of the more reasonable sellers on ebay so their tables are definitely worth looking at. That said, why would anyone spend any time at someone like 707's or Mike Wheat's table when they have the same old worn out extra high prices they sell their cards for on ebay?
To me, the excitement will come from finding cards from dealers who have never used the internet to sell their cards or have cards stashed away under the table because they aren't the "name brand" cards usually asked for by buyers. I once bought almost half a set of T207s in excellent condition because the seller had them in a box under his table because there wasn't much interest. It never hurts to ask what else they might have which is not on display. Just a thought.....

[tbob]

Also be prepared to find some nice deals but also be prepared to pay more than you want because certain cards will pop up that you can't find anywhere else.

[calvindog]

I do love the old "I have the good stuff hidden behind the table" trick by some dealers. Nothing beats that.

[4815162342]

If you're not going to bring out the "good stuff" at the National, when in the world are you?

[peterose4hof]

Can anyone confirm or debunk the theory that dealers are willing to make better deals on Sunday because they don't want to take their inventory home with them?

[Rich Klein]

If the dealer had a good show or not. If the dealer had a bomb of a show (that does happen) and if they are still around on Sunday -- then cash in pocket beats merchandise going back home.

Your best deals do come at the very beginning (Beginning with Tuesday set up -- through Wednesday Night) and at the very end.

But good deals do pop up all weekend. I bought many cool things for the Beckett archives in my day wandering around all weekend. Sometimes Sunday would be my best day for pickups as some dealers left so others spread out -- or new items would be on display.

Now, since my purpose in going is different --- I don't pay as much attention to that as I used to

Rich

[bijoem]

I wish I was there with you guys.

Have a good time!

[calvindog]

I'm bringing MAJOR Taddy cash. MAJOR.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

My Motto

If you don't like my prices, send over your wife and we can dicker!

LOL, i was wondering if anyone caught that.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm bringing MAJOR Taddy cash. MAJOR.

sounds like you are going for some behind the table taddy's!

have a good time. Let me know how it goes.

[Rich Klein]

At a National -- the show is now basically a 5-6 day event. I do not know the exact costs of the tables/booths so please do not quote that as gospel.

General Expenses at show

2 Booths cost $2500 (May be high; may be low -- but this is a reasonable guesstimate)

Travel to the show -- you either fly (Chicago is a reasonably priced city to go to by air) or you are close enoiugh or crazy enough to drive. With all costs for transsportation the average is probably $400 (Again some higher, some lower)

Hotels -- yes some people stay at the Motel 6's of the world -- but assuming you stay at a mid range National hotel it is probably $125 per night when all is said and done Figure 4-5 nights and that is another $500-600

FOOD -- no matter what you do -- food is going to cost you. Even if you are reasonable (There is or was a Mickey D's not far from the show and last year in Baltimore I found a Subway,,,,now Cleveland is a different subject for that
$20 per day night -- $100 person

Misc Expenses -- and there are always those -- figure $400 for that for the week period

Thus -- you have spent $4K before selling a card.

And no that does not include the prices of any cards you sell.

So, if you hit Sunday Mrning and have taken in; let's say $2K and you realize what your expenses are; you may be the dealer that stays open to try to make Sunday sales. And then if someone has cash, you are more amenable to making sales.

Now everyone is different; but just explaining for the National about the Sunday reasons for getting or giving discounts

Rich

[Fripples]

Leon,

If you could do me a favor while you're at the National? Tell Lichtman to quit stealing my jokes. Billy Mumphrey, the 'cock-eyed optimist' is mine.

Have an awesome time and I'm peeved that I'm absent. Bye!!

Fripples

*token Middle East PhD*

[HexsHeroes]

.

Hey eds10 . . .

For me, the National Show is as much for the museum quality stuff to see and talk about, as it is for finding items to purchase. I've been to seven National shows, of which I only make purchases at four shows. But even though I was shut out at three of them, I still had a fantastic time. The variety and quality of items on display, for sale, or hidden behind the counters is unbelievable. And if you happen to be an attentive listener (or even better, blessed with the gift of engaging others in conversation), the stories told by both dealers and other collectors alike, will add significantly to "the National" experience. I once had the opportunity to meet an eBay archnemesis at a National show because I overheard him telling of his conquest of an item we both were bidding on. Imagine the look on his face (and the sound of his jaw hitting the floor) when I approached him, called him by his eBay member ID, and identified myself by my eBay member ID. Priceless. Turns out he wasn't such a bad fellow, and now I have a face to go with the eBay member ID during our next eBay go-around.

If funds are short for shopping (but still can afford the $15 one-day entry fee), and if a day trip to/from Cleveland is tolerable, make plans now to attend the 2014 National show just for the opportunity to see some of the neatest collectibles in the hobby.

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

At a National -- the show is now basically a 5-6 day event. I do not know the exact costs of the tables/booths so please do not quote that as gospel.

General Expenses at show

2 Booths cost $2500 (May be high; may be low -- but this is a reasonable guesstimate)

Travel to the show -- you either fly (Chicago is a reasonably priced city to go to by air) or you are close enoiugh or crazy enough to drive. With all costs for transsportation the average is probably $400 (Again some higher, some lower)

Hotels -- yes some people stay at the Motel 6's of the world -- but assuming you stay at a mid range National hotel it is probably $125 per night when all is said and done Figure 4-5 nights and that is another $500-600

FOOD -- no matter what you do -- food is going to cost you. Even if you are reasonable (There is or was a Mickey D's not far from the show and last year in Baltimore I found a Subway,,,,now Cleveland is a different subject for that
$20 per day night -- $100 person

Misc Expenses -- and there are always those -- figure $400 for that for the week period

Thus -- you have spent $4K before selling a card.

And no that does not include the prices of any cards you sell.

So, if you hit Sunday Mrning and have taken in; let's say $2K and you realize what your expenses are; you may be the dealer that stays open to try to make Sunday sales. And then if someone has cash, you are more amenable to making sales.

Now everyone is different; but just explaining for the National about the Sunday reasons for getting or giving discounts

Rich

Personally, I hope there are a lot of Sunday discounts as that is the only day that I can attend the National. On the other side of this discussion, if a dealer has not had that many sales in the previous days, I could see the dealer thinking that time is money and decide to go home early.

[danc]

I'm expecting the majority of dealers to have their cards ridiculously overpriced...with a small % of sellers within reason...or just slightly overpriced! .

..yeah, I just stole what Peter U. said because that's what I would have written. :-)

My biggest pet peeve is the price tag on the back. People ask him, he has to get the key, open the case, mention the price and ask if you want to see it (I say 'I'm good and slink on through to the next table) and this happens so often to this dealer that by the third day, he is defeated and is rather rude and is like "you're just going to hand it back like all the rest" and he will never understand that all this could be eliminated by a) being fair or b) put the prices on the front!

DanC

[mintacular]

I've been to the National in Cleveland a few years ago, and some other major shows since then including a few at RMU in PGH...Here are my observations about $...

1. Most of the dealers that have survived have done so because they "buy low, sell high"--it is a very tough market w/baseball cards and so only those types have survived. I think the dealers that are "reasonable" etc about prices in general could not survive and make profit selling at eBay competitive prices.

2. The best deals are at the margins, low dollar stuff and possibly very high dollar stuff. If you go in and are building sets and cherry picking from binders, etc. you can actually get nice looking vintage singles at ok $'s. Also, if you have wads of 20's and hundreds and know the market for what you are buying you can get a quality card for a good price, although sometimes you have to walk away....Keep in mind, most good dealers know what the cards go for on eBay so they will cut you a 10%+ deal knowing what the feels are.The WORST deals though are on the mid-grade vintage stars that are priced at 80% of book.

3. Be very careful buying raw....I made the mistake recently doing so from a prominent dealer and should've know that if it was really gradeable he would've sent it in. He lied to me (I don't send everything in 'cause I have raw vintage buyers only) but I should've known better.

4. If you are willing to take a loss, you can go in with something in your collection and part with it albeit not at full market $...i.e. "I have these 10 T206 beaters, take them from me but knock of $75 from "X" card that you really want...

[calvindog]

Example of the prices: I saw a Centennial Stamp Cobb in PSA 7; it had sold on eBay for $95 last December. I offered $150. The dealer insisted upon $200. I walked.

[Bosox Blair]

Just finished my first few hours at my first National.

Agreed - prices are high. Some are downright crazy. I was offered a graded T202 for $850. Recently 2 in the same grade sold on eBay...one for $405 and the other for $425. Dealers asking double the real world price is not unusual. Though I am happy to say it is not the "rule".

I talked to a few dealers who were willing to come close to the prices realized in recent auctions...close...maybe 10% higher .

Undoubtedly, some people will walk away saying confidently they got a "steal" on something. I saw no steals anywhere.

But I have lots more booths to visit tomorrow!


Cheers,
Blair

[bbcard1]

A rule I always follow is DO NOT wear clothing with logos of your favorite teams. I am a Marshall guy. Logic would dictate that I would want a dealer to tell me if he has something in the back, but more often I just felt like I got jacked up prices because the guy suddenly feels like his Pennington is more valuable to me than anyone else in the room. I actually got that when in about 1996 or so when Sample cards where hot, I was walking into a show and a Score rep was handing out cards. I had a Reds cap on because i was a fan when I was a boy...anyway, I walk in and the rep starts to hand me a Frank Thomas or someone who was hot and marketable, notices my reds cap and pulls it back and gives me a Joe Oliver. Thank buddy.

[Jewish-collector]

I was at the show today. Seemed to be less dealers than last time in Chicago. Since I'm a low end buyer, the show for me is as much a social time (meeting collectors, dealers, etc,...) as it is buying cards. Not to mention the Steve Miller Band concert downtown tomorrow night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Example of the prices: I saw a Centennial Stamp Cobb in PSA 7; it had sold on eBay for $95 last December. I offered $150. The dealer insisted upon $200. I walked.

Cheapskate.

[calvindog]

Lol.

[Golfcollector]

My early opinion of doing a fly through last night for two hours.

Prices overall very high

[Big Ben]

Keep posting those reports everyone. --just trying to gauge what to expect price wise when I get there Sunday!

[bobbyw8469]

I think Ebay is going to be VERY popular this week!! I don't know about you, but I am not a fan of paying double fair market value! I am sure Levi is making a killing however. He only has to sell 10 or so cards......