Coach's Corner - The Perfect Crime?

[canjond]

I'll be honest... I doubt a class action would work.

[barrysloate]

Well they've certainly figured out how to make their business model work.

[scooter729]

I would think Steiner would be plenty interested in exploring this if they are using copies of Steiner certs to sell their garbage - that's going to lessen the Steiner name and potentially cause Steiner to lose business, so I'm sure they would love to hear about that....

[canjond]

Is CC being quasi-misleading in describing the Steiner certificate, yes... but the item state that an authentic piece of Yankee stadium seating is attached to the plaque (which it is). A copy of the Steiner certificate attesting to the authenticity of the chair is included. Reading quickly, a bidder may assume that the garbage auto is authenticated by Steiner, but CC's description does clearly state only the seat piece is.

Believe me, I hate defending these guys, but I'm not sure Steiner can do anything about what CC is doing. CC is not lying in their descriptions.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by canjond

Is CC being quasi-misleading in describing the Steiner certificate, yes... but the item state that an authentic piece of Yankee stadium seating is attached to the plaque (which it is). A copy of the Steiner certificate attesting to the authenticity of the chair is included. Reading quickly, a bidder may assume that the garbage auto is authenticated by Steiner, but CC's description does clearly state only the seat piece is.

Believe me, I hate defending these guys, but I'm not sure Steiner can do anything about what CC is doing. CC is not lying in their descriptions.

I agree with, Jon. They (Coach's Commode) are simply coupling a legitimate piece of a Yankee Stadium seat (with a Steiner COA) with 100% forgeries.

A few of the buyers of that crap always try to flip them on Ebay but they eventually get removed because the autographs are so horrid.

[pow323]

It is the world that we live in today! What is wrong is right and what is right is wrong!!

[vintagechris]

I get SPAM from them all the time. By law, I believe they are required to list their address and also the option to opt out of mailings. They do neither. I have even emailed them to remove me. Is there any way to get them in trouble with the law for spamming?

I don't even know how I got on their list. I have never nor would I ever buy anything from them.

If anybody thinks it would be possible and knows how to cause them legal trouble for spamming, I think I have about two or three years worth of emails saved from them, all SPAM as described by the law if I am understanding what SPAM actually is.

[mr2686]

I believe the only way to get at CC, is to prove that they have knowledge that their items are not authentic. Since we're dealing with products that have "opinions" that they are authentic, CC stays in the clear. What really needs to happen is to convict a person or persons that is forging these items and having them admit that CC not only knows about it, but is also commissioning these items (if that indeed is happening). Right now I think the best bet is going after these bogus experts that are authenticating this junk.

[Leon]

I think what they do is just as is being said. They take their crappy business practices right to the edge of being unlawful and don't go over it. Believe me, if it was illegal, what they are doing, the law would have come down on them. You can't dispute them only having an opinion. The FBI reads this board regularly and I believe they are still investigating the hobby. If there was a Federal crime being committed, with serious fraud going on that can be proven, then it would be taken care of. Coaches Corner is fairly smart in the way the operate. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand it, but I doubt they are doing too much that could be proven illegal. And again, you can't sue them for giving their opinion something is real, even if it isn't. It's their opinion. It's the suckers that believe their opinion that are giving them their business model and it's a shame. regards

[slidekellyslide]

Opinion or not they KNOW they are peddling forgeries...some of the items they sell can't possibly exist as real..ie 1960s manufactured baseballs signed by Ruth, et cetera. The FBI should be cracking down on these idiots...if they can go into Mastro to try and get their bidder records to prove shilling then they should have cause to go into CC and get their consignor records and find out who is making this crap. It's infuriating that this operation has been allowed to continue unabated for this long.

I asked this question before and didn't get much in the way of a response: If you buy a forgery from them, sue them and bring experts to court who agree it's a forgery, and the court agrees you've been sold a forgery - can you not then require them to divulge the consignor? And if you did this a few times, and the consignors were always the same group of guys, and there was no realistic, proveable provenance for the items, couldn't that lead to a bigger action of some sort?

[jt39]

If you can pardon the overly lawyerly post that follows, I've offered a few off the cuff thoughts on this (not legal advice in any manner, and totally hypothetical based on what people have said in the thread):

Though this is a relatively small, non-traditional target for class action (which would make it tough to find a lawyer, I'd think), class action doesn't strike me as totally implausible here -- may make sense to define the class in relation to a particularly egregious authenticator(s) and name them as well. The # and type of items sold is easy enough to identify and plead, and you can pick and choose amongst items so as to define the most desirable class -- one which is sufficiently large, sufficiently easy to connect (e.g. signatures of certain oft-sold players), etc. Finding a lead plaintiff may not be too tough since anyone buying the stuff is already on the internet and I'm sure plenty have complained over the years. They need to have been genuinely swindled though. Find an expert who can attest that all of the autographs in question are fakes and then list them in the complaint (here again, their internet presence really helps with pleading sufficiently specific facts -- you could even list out auction #'s and include pictures of the items in question).

The real kicker would be identifying the sources of the purported memorabilia. Detective work on this can't be too tough -- where do packages to the bad authenticators come from? Do trucks pull up to/drive away from, say, this Morales guy's office that someone can follow? I'm obviously not giving any kind of advice to pursue such actions, which are undoubtedly more appropriate for governmental authorities and would require careful scrutiny from an attorney before an individual pursued them. But if you could define the class as people who purchased items that were produced by Counterfeiter Doe, certified by Joe Authenticator, and sold by Coach's Corner, you'd be setting yourself up well on some major stumbling blocks to class action certification (commonality, typicality). Not to mention setting up a nice array of causes of action -- RICO, conspiracy to commit fraud, fraud, in addition to breach of contract. The whole point of conspiracy causes of action is to prevent illegal actors from avoiding the force of the law by craftily breaking up their criminal enterprise into separate parts, then claiming they are unrelated and hiding the connections. That is exactly what this is (hypothetically). If this is actually a conspiracy, some well-thought-out, yet totally legal for a non-governmental-official investigation may well uncover the type of info needed to survive a motion to dismiss.

I would note that there is nothing stopping a truly aggrieved individual from bringing a lawsuit relating to their own item. Sure, there may not be a ton of money in it and that may make it hard to find a lawyer, but if someone is pissed enough, and/or spent enough money, it would be much easier to get a case off the ground (and, most importantly, gain access to discovery from the company) if the case was brought by an individual. Of course, you'd face a fight on the scope of discovery, but you'd have a good chance at getting at the juicy info on the connection points in the alleged scheme. May not get a lot of $$$ in the first case (unless you can win punitives), but would be doing a ton of damage to their (hypothetical) criminal enterprise -- if any nasty info gets brought to light, the whole house of cards may well come down.

Finally, someone mentioned that they only trade on "opinions," they don't actually assert that the items are legit. First, that's why you bring in the authenticator. Second, you can allege (and seek to prove) that they know the items are fake, and that they know that the authenticator knows the items are fake -- and therefore that withholding that information and passing them off as items for which an authenticator has issued an "opinion" of veracity is itself a misrepresentation. Now, fraud has heightened pleading requirements (i.e., you have to allege more specific facts in your suit ... can't just say "he lied!"). But an individual asserting breach of contract on that basis may well be able to go after this as a misrepresentation without meeting that burden. (I.e., you contracted for an item that was truly "a baseball that Joe Authenticator has opined was signed by Mickey Mantle," when in fact what you got was "a baseball that Coach's Corner knew was a fake and which it knew had been counterfeited and which it knew had been knowingly fraudulently designated as real by Joe Authenticator".)

[earlywynnfan]

I would think the "larger" "legitimate" auction houses wouldn't sue CC because then they would be forced to open up their own business practices for intense scrutiny.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com