The New York Times puts their two cents into the Jeter memorabilia story

[David Atkatz]

If the athletes weren't such pigs-at-the-trough, the kid could do what kids have always (up 'till recently) done: write to the athlete who would (particularly in the off-season) be happy to sign. For free. And Brandon and his ilk would, perhaps, be driving a cab, or flogging schmatas in the garment district.

[packs]

What bothers me most about Steiner is his prices. All of his items are grossly over-priced. $599 for a Derek Jeter signed baseball is not a "market driven" price. It is the reflection of a man's compulsion to make as much money as he possibly can. For some people that works. For me it doesn't. I realize no one has to pay the price he's asking, but it still bothers me personally.

The argument that fans are driving up the prices of autographed memorabilia doesn't hold water for me. Prices were way way way down in the early 90s even at card shows. It was only after athletes decided they wanted more money and "should" be paid more for writing their name that prices started to go up, in my opinion. And I believe that is why old timers never saw a market for their signatures.

I was just reading a story on Yahoo about US Women's goalkeeper Hope Solo. She will most likely be turning down every endorement opportunity she's been offered in favor of leading a quiet life. Poor business decision or positive life choice? Which is more "valuable"?

[HRBAKER]

They have to price items that high to make sure there is no potential for someone to resell the item at an even higher price, thus preventing leakage.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by packs

What bothers me most about Steiner is his prices. All of his items are grossly over-priced. $599 for a Derek Jeter signed baseball is not a "market driven" price. It is the reflection of a man's compulsion to make as much money as he possibly can. For some people that works. For me it doesn't. I realize no one has to pay the price he's asking, but it still bothers me personally.

The argument that fans are driving up the prices of autographed memorabilia doesn't hold water for me. Prices were way way way down in the early 90s even at card shows. It was only after athletes decided they wanted more money and "should" be paid more for writing their name that prices started to go up, in my opinion. And I believe that is why old timers never saw a market for their signatures.

I was just reading a story on Yahoo about US Women's goalkeeper Hope Solo. She will most likely be turning down every endorement opportunity she's been offered in favor of leading a quiet life. Poor business decision or positive life choice? Which is more "valuable"?

Hey Packs,

Your comment about Steiner's prices is spot on.

BTW, I attended the National in Cleveland in 1997 and paid $50 to get Sandy Koufax's signature because it afforded me the opportunity to meet Koufax once again in person and have him personally sign a theme ball that I was working on at the time. I asked him to add an inscription and he said he was more than happy to do this, with no additional inscription fee. Sandy was, as always, a complete gentleman. Unfortunately, he has become somewhat of a recluse.

Now Steiner has got his hooks into Koufax and it now costs $500-$600 for a basic sig (no inscription) when he has a "private signing". This has eliminated the possibility of many fans ever meeting Sandy or, heaven help them, being able to afford to get his autograph.

Call this the "Steiner effect". I'm not a fan of Brandon Steiner, needless to say...

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Now Steiner has got his hooks into Koufax and it now costs $500-$600 for a basic sig (no inscription) when he has a "private signing". This has eliminated the possibility of many fans ever meeting Sandy or, heaven help them, being able to afford to get his autograph.

Call this the "Steiner effect". I'm not a fan of Brandon Steiner, needless to say...

This is EXACTLY my point. Sandy Koufax ain't doing card shows for $50 a pop.... And you want to blame Steiner? But when Jeter follows in Koufax's footsteps, you want to blame Jeter?

Which one is it? Stop thinking athletes have changed. Wake up and smell the 21st Century.

[David Atkatz]

Of course athletes have changed. Bloodsuckers like Steiner have shown them, nay, produced for them, a new "business model." Extreme greed. And all it took to make it work was folks like you--ones not only happy to pay, but, more than that, honored to pay.

"Thank you, sir; may I have another."

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Of course athletes have changed. Bloodsuckers like Steiner have shown them, nay, produced for them, a new "business model." Extreme greed. And all it took to make it work was folks like you--ones not only happy to pay, but, more than that, honored to pay.

"Thank you, sir; may I have another."

Never paid a red cent for anything Steiner has sold. Don't collect modern stuff unless I happen to have a ticket to the game and something special happens -- I've been to three no hitters, two perfect games, the Aaron Boone game, etc.

But I rest easily about the changing athlete and the rising fees. You give way too much credit to Steiner. That's like blaming PSA for the rising cost of baseball cards. Steiner and PSA fill a need in the market for collectibles. They didnt manufacture the demand, they answered it.

The greed you speak of began when the first kid waiting for Ruth after a game turned around and sold it to someone who wanted it more, even if he wasnt the original recipient. That's when the innocence you seem to miss so badly began to die.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The greed you speak of began when the first kid waiting for Ruth after a game turned around and sold it to someone who wanted it more, even if he wasnt the original recipient. That's when the innocence you seem to miss so badly began to die.

Nonsense, once again. The difference between then and now, is, simply, that Ruth didn't give a shit. He just kept on signin' and signin'.

For free.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Of course athletes have changed. Bloodsuckers like Steiner have shown them, nay, produced for them, a new "business model." Extreme greed. And all it took to make it work was folks like you--ones not only happy to pay, but, more than that, honored to pay.

"Thank you, sir; may I have another."

+1!!!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is EXACTLY my point. Sandy Koufax ain't doing card shows for $50 a pop.... And you want to blame Steiner? But when Jeter follows in Koufax's footsteps, you want to blame Jeter?

Which one is it? Stop thinking athletes have changed. Wake up and smell the 21st Century.

FWIW, I do blame Steiner. I've gotta believe that Steiner waving $500 per signature private signing paydays under athletes' noses is the problem, not the cure for what the hobby needs. Are you kidding me??

Guys like him are killing the hobby for the average fan that doesn't have extremely deep pockets. Believe me, I can smell the stench of Steiner and the 21st century from across the country....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

FWIW, I do blame Steiner. I've gotta believe that Steiner waving $500 per signature private signing paydays under athletes' noses is the problem, not the cure for what the hobby needs. Are you kidding me??

Guys like him are killing the hobby for the average fan that doesn't have extremely deep pockets. Believe me, I can smell the stench of Steiner and the 21st century from across the country....

So you do or you dont blame the athlete?

[T206Collector]

Maybe Steiner will kill the hobby so dead I'll be able to get some great values on stadium seats.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

If the athletes weren't such pigs-at-the-trough, the kid could do what kids have always (up 'till recently) done: write to the athlete who would (particularly in the off-season) be happy to sign. For free. And Brandon and his ilk would, perhaps, be driving a cab, or flogging schmatas in the garment district.

Again, the kids started selling their stuff on ebay. Kids arent collecting cards anymore for fun. They do it for money, ever since the 1980s. Autographs are the same.

Let me draw it simply for you in outline format:

1. Koufax used to sign for free in the mail.
2. Many people started selling his autographs.
3. The value grew so much people started forging his signature.
4. Koufax started charging $50 for his autograph at shows
5. The value kept growing, and forgeries followed suit.
6. Steiner streamlined the process for the athletes, maximized the value to reduce leakage and put an end to forgeries.
7. Whining collectors started bitching that Koufax stopped signing freebies in the mail and blame Koufax and/or Steiner -- ignoring the fact that the rising price had everything to do with collector demand.

[David Atkatz]

You're absolutely wrong. Your model makes no sense. As long as Koufax is signing for free, there's no market for his sold signature. Sure, a few will sell, but the market is small. Only when demand--you remember demand; you must, since you're constantly lecturing about it--for $50 signatures rises, will people pay. And that demand rises only when the supply of free signatures dries up. The logical next step, of course, is to realize that if they'll pay $50, they'll pay $60. And if supply is held down--no leakage--they might even pay $600.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You're absolutely wrong. Your model makes no sense. As long as Koufax is signing for free, there's no market for his sold signature. Sure, a few will sell, but the market is small. Only when demand--you remember demand; you must, since you're constantly lecturing about it--for $50 signatures rises, will people pay. And that demand rises only when the supply of free signatures dries up. The logical next step, of course, is to realize that if they'll pay $50, they'll pay $60. And if supply is held down--no leakage--they might even pay $600.

I'm wrong? Your answer is Koufax has to sign like Bob Feller? In fact, has a civic duty to sign like Feller?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I'm wrong? Your answer is Koufax has to sign like Bob Feller? In fact, has a civic duty to sign like Feller?

Thanks for strengthening my point! There never was a market (shall we say "demand?) for $600 Feller signatures. Why? 'Cause he never stopped signing for nothing (or next to nothing.)

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Thanks for strengthening my point! There never was a market (shall we say "demand?) for $600 Feller signatures. Why? 'Cause he never stopped signing for nothing (or next to nothing.)

Koufax obviously has better things to do with his life than set up shop at the concession stand at Land o Lakes park every day in March for the rest of his life.

As long as there is a demand for his signature (shall we say "market") you would require the athlete to flood the market with free signatures until the demand was covered? You fault the athlete for monetizing his signature. In what other industry do you intentionally dilute your market?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

You fault the athlete for monetizing his signature. In what other industry do you intentionally dilute your market?

Of course I do. They never should have created the "market" in the first place. (Then there'd be nothing to "dilute.")

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Thanks for strengthening my point! There never was a market (shall we say "demand?) for $600 Feller signatures. Why? 'Cause he never stopped signing for nothing (or next to nothing.)

David,
I can't believe we're totally on the same page here. BTW, thanks for pleading my side of the case while I slept. Do you and T206 ever sleep, BTW?

[barrysloate]

In my entire life as a baseball fan and memorabilia collector, the total number of autographs I've gotten in person is one- Joe DiMaggio's when he signed for free at a Bowery Savings Bank in downtown Brooklyn. He was pleasant and we were able to chat for a few minutes. Other than that, I have never had even a scintilla of interest in getting a famous athlete to sign something. I've always felt it was utterly meaningless and never understood the phenomenon.

Steiner certainly may be greedy for asking $600 for a signed Jeter ball, but what I cannot fathom is why there is a single person on this earth who would want to buy one. I would put a market value of about three cents on it, and I would have to be in a generous mood to even pay that. When I used to go to shows and see people standing on line for hours, just so they could overpay for an autograph from some surly ex-athlete who might not even make eye contact with them, I would shake my head in disbelief. Surely there has to be a better way to spend one's time and money.

But the world doesn't always listen to me, and this silly market of hero worship will continue unabated. Hey, people can spend their money as they wish.