Difference between Type 1 and Type 2 Press Photos...

[murphusa]

what happens when there is a leap year?

[Lordstan]

The "Type" system was proposed by 2 collectors Henry Yee, also a seller, and Marshall Fogel around 2005 in the book "A Portrait of Baseball Photography." The system attempts to categorize and organize pictures by date printed as compared to the date the picture was actually taken.

This is an excellent book, as beside the system, it goes into great detail into various topics about collecting pictures including news company stamps and the time frames they were used, great photographers and their histories, as well as general collecting topics.

About a year ago PSA/DNA and Beckett started offering a service to authenticate and even slab pictures using the system. This has caused an uproar as there is a large anti "Third Party Authenticator" faction in this group of experienced collectors, especially when it come to PSA.

There are many who don't like the system and many who do, both for various reasons detailed in another recent thread. Without getting into this debate again, here are the official guidelines for the different types in the classification system.

Type I - A 1st generation photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type II - A photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Type III - A 2nd generation photograph, developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type IV - A 2nd generation photograph (or 3rd or later generation), developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during a later period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken)

Unfortunately many sellers misdescribe the photos they sell, some for nefarious reasons and some because they just don't know. The best advice is this. Buy the picture, not the authentication or seller description, whether they use the type description or not. Good pictures are good pictures regardless of how they are classified or described.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby.
Mark

[drc]

The simplest thing to remember is Type 1 is original, and the other types are something different. The label also gives the date (date range-- ala 1960s) when the photo was made, so you should know how old is the photo.

In general, if you want to pick up a photo of Ty Cobb or whomever, you'll want to put your hard earned dollars on the Type !s-- the original. Makes sense. Originals are good, right? There's nothing wrong with picking up a type 2 or 3 or whatever, but obviously they won't be the originals nor valued as originals. For the non-type 1s, I would consider who made the photo (AP, George Brace stamp on back, etc), the quality/aesthetics and when it was made (should be listed on the label).

I'm not telling anyone what to do-- but in most any area of collecting, original is the most desirable type. Also, as the originals were made from the original negative, the image will usually be of superior quality. Copies and copy negatives and reprints usually are of lesser quality, often much lesser quality.

[Ladder7]

David,

Perhaps at the Approximate two yr point, older negatives lose clarity, fade or otherwise degrade? thanks

[David Atkatz]

Yeah.

And pigs might fly.

[olsport]

I in no way claim to be an expert in this field, but I have found that Type II or later wire photos have the caption written in the photo itself, vs a Type I that may or may not, have a glued captioned piece of paper attached to it.
Also, many TypeII's and later seem to have inferior clarity and quality. Many of the Type I's seem to be almost printed from the original negative.

[thecatspajamas]

olsport,
You've got a common mix-up in terminology there. A "wire photo" is a photo that was actually sent over the news wire and developed by the machinery on the other end. As you said, the caption for a wire photo is typically embedded in the image on the front (actually part of the image). The wire photo on the receiving end is considered a Type 3 photo if it is within the 2-year period, or a Type 4 if it's in a later period. As you said, the wire photo will almost always be of inferior quality to the original, though some still come out very nice.

The original photo on the sending end is not considered a "wire photo," though this is a common mistake. It could be called a "news photo" or "press photo," but the term "wire photo" should be reserved for photos that actually travelled over-the-wire and were produced by the machinery on the receiving end. You could say that all "wire photos" are also "news photos," but all "news photos" are not "wire photos."

The photo on the sending end would typically be a Type 1 or Type 2, and the one on the receiving end would be a Type 3 or Type 4.

Also, by definition, ALL Type 1 and Type 2 photos were printed from the original negative.

[Drift]

I thoroughly enjoy reading old threads like these.

I wanted to bring up a question on pricing of original type photographs.

With such variance in types how does one price a photo when considering a purchase?

Are major auction house sale results a good indicator of price?
If I were to buy a photo through Heritage auction house could I count on selling it for the same 5 years down the road?

With what I call "niche" categories of collecting I always find that a particular item can be sold multiple times throughout the years and the final sale prices can vary to a great degree. Does this seem to hold true for original type photo's?

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The "Type" system was proposed by 2 collectors Henry Yee, also a seller, and Marshall Fogel around 2005 in the book "A Portrait of Baseball Photography." The system attempts to categorize and organize pictures by date printed as compared to the date the picture was actually taken.

This is an excellent book, as beside the system, it goes into great detail into various topics about collecting pictures including news company stamps and the time frames they were used, great photographers and their histories, as well as general collecting topics.

About a year ago PSA/DNA and Beckett started offering a service to authenticate and even slab pictures using the system. This has caused an uproar as there is a large anti "Third Party Authenticator" faction in this group of experienced collectors, especially when it come to PSA.

There are many who don't like the system and many who do, both for various reasons detailed in another recent thread. Without getting into this debate again, here are the official guidelines for the different types in the classification system.

Type I - A 1st generation photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type II - A photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Type III - A 2nd generation photograph, developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type IV - A 2nd generation photograph (or 3rd or later generation), developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during a later period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken)

Unfortunately many sellers misdescribe the photos they sell, some for nefarious reasons and some because they just don't know. The best advice is this. Buy the picture, not the authentication or seller description, whether they use the type description or not. Good pictures are good pictures regardless of how they are classified or described.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby.
Mark

The problem with this is that those 2 made the difference between a Type 1 and Type 2 photos only 2 years, which makes telling them apart almost impossible. People who collect non-sports photos used a 5-10 year difference. This takes in account that the type of photo paper being used when the picture was taken is no longer in circulation.