What mgrs/exec's/umps would you consider future HOFers?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I do not believe that a ballplayer on a team who used steroids should have any impact at all on the view of an executive's career with that team. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that many of that player's teammates knew about the steroids also, why not hold that against them? Where does it end then?

I agree completely. It's real easy to sit back and moralize, as if Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa were somehow harboring criminals and therefore guilty too. At most, they had suspicions, not proof, I am sure.

[dstudeba]

The Hall is pathetic without Marvin Miller, debating other cadidates without his inclusion is pointless.

Billy Beane should go in someday.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

I'm not moralizing particularly, because as I stated earlier, I am not as offended by the whole steroid usage issue as are some others. The users cheated, but cheating has been going on in some form or fashion since the inception of the game. If you want to argue that this type of cheating is worse in type or degree than putting substances on the ball, taking greenies, or performing some other type of activity that is against the rules, so be it. I tend not to, but others may differ. I understand that.

However, if you are going to shoot at the players who took the banned substances, presumably to help them get ahead, keep their job and stay in the lineup, it is the height of hyprocrisy to at the same time give the higher ups a pass. They knew, and they did nothing until their hand was forced. Having profited immensley from the very activity that they now feign indignation about, they're teflon? I don't see it that way and see no justification for treating owners, managers or the commissioner differently from the players.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's your evidence, for example, that Joe Torre "knew" Clemens was using?

[chris6net]

I think it is sad that people would even consider George Steinbrenner for the HOF. I personally know of several families who Steinbrenner affected by his pettiness. Ask many of the long term workers who had their lives changed when Steinbrenner took over in 1973. He was petty and mean to the common worker for the Yankees. Also the 2 great Yankee runs during his time as an owner started while he was suspended and he had competent baseball people running the team. Any owner suspended 2 different times for an extended period of time should never be thought of as a HOF candidate.CN

[Kenny Cole]

It was a generic "they" knew steroid usage was going on, not a specific Joe Torre knew Clemens was using. This isn't a court of law however, and lots of players who have consistently denied having knowingly used steroids have already been convicted in the court of public opinion. The "proof" upon which they have been convicted is based on things like changed physical attributes, rhoid-rage episodes, etc. Were the Yankees who used immune to those changes?

If the accounts that are now being related are correct and usage was as widespread as the reports seem to indicate, Torre would have had to be either real naive, stupid or willfully ignorant to be completely unaware that it was going on in the clubhouse right outside his office. I don't believe he is any of those things. Thus, I conclude that, at the very least, he had a reasonable suspicion that it was going on. BTW, how many of the players he managed were named in the Mitchell report? My recollection is that it was around 20. Was Torre simply blind to all that was going on?

If Torre knew and didn't do anything, does it matter to you insofar as the HOF is concerned? Based on my reading of your prior posts, my impression was that it didn't. How about Selig? I cannot ever be convinced that he didn't know that: 1) it was going on; and 2) it was widespread. Does that knowledge affect his candidacy?

[novakjr]

What's a manager, gm or owner to do? Are they supposed to get rid of, or pass on a guy who is going to help them win because of steroids, so he can go do it for someone else?

A manager's job is to find a way to win while working with the pieces he is given. A GM's job is to get the manager the pieces to win. And an Owner needs to find a balance between winning and profit. If there's nothing you can do to get a player removed from the league all-together, then the only thing you can do is accept him.. There was no moral high-road or low-road when it came to this as far as management goes. They were stuck with the situation. Get him and use him, or someone else will. Could you imagine the amount of collusion suits brought against the league if these guys were basically blackballed?

The true blame for the Steroid mess should go to the players and the union for not allowing anything to be done about it. Selig and the owners were a bit handcuffed, but honestly should've given the union the terms and said "it's this or nothing". However, Selig and the Owners are running a business. There was big money to be lost in a strike or lockout. So I can't completely blame them for trying to privately resolve the issue from within, if only to keep it from coming to a lockout..

On the other side of that is the fact that none of 'em really tried to privately resolve the issue from within. They just accepted it as unstoppable and used turning a blind eye as a tool to make more money...Managers and GM's were just stuck with the situation though. What are they supposed to do? Walk away from the game?