spence authentication knowledge or reputation

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by sflayank

today JSA was at a local card show....I brought with me a muhammad ali 8x10 photo...the photo was signed by ali in my presence 16 years ago at the sawgrass mills mall in sunrise florida...at the time that was probably the biggest mall card show there was...i was set up at the table directly in front of the autograph signing podium...at the end of the signing session..the sunrise police office on stage...a baseball card collector and buddy of mine...had ali sign 5 photos...he kept 2 and gave the other 3 to myself and the 2 dealers next to me..i placed the photo on one of those old wooden plaques that noone uses anymore...and its been in my closet for 16 years...today Mr Spence told me in his opinion it was a forgery...so after 3 seconds of examination and $75 my personally witnessed autograph became worthless...the lesson here is just further proof that having a reputation gives you a license to steal...he did not compare to any examples...was he comparing it to his memory of ali's signature today...does he know what it looked like 16 years ago...or was he just making $75 for 3 seconds of work....you tell me

You are paying for an opinion. Mistakes do happen as the process is not 100 percent full proof by a long shot. Mr. Spence, PSA and ALL the other "authenticators" are not wizards and/or superhuman(including the ones on this board). In fairness, do you have scans of the rejection letter and item that you can post? Sorry you had such a bad experience.

[bluebirds]

Regardless of Spence's ability or lack of same, I don't blame him for getting fool's to part with their money. Because collectors buy into his and PSA's so called "expertise", they need to look no further than into a mirror and ask why anyone would pay $75 for a 3 second opinion and a wrong one at that?

Martin Green

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by bluebirds

Regardless of Spence's ability or lack of same, I don't blame him for getting fool's to part with their money. Because collectors buy into his and PSA's so called "expertise", they need to look no further than into a mirror and ask why anyone would pay $75 for a 3 second opinion and a wrong one at that?

Martin Green

Most collectors and dealers think without JSA or PSA what you have is crap, and thats why you trust in these folks to get it correct. If you try to sell without the cert. you get the "Sure it's real kid" crap. I've never sold an auto in my life but if I ever do I will have to have them certified. Thats the nature of the beast.

[travrosty]

it's not true, you can sell items not certified, me and my friends do it all the time, we sell at retail too. we just sell to collectors who are serious collectors and know what they are buying. the good stuff will sell without a cert by one of the guessing companies. i am not against 3rd party authentication, just the way it is done now. i think mr. simon is better than most, and doesnt deserved to be lumped into the big companies that take 3 seconds to tell you that you have a fake. but its par for the course when these companies set up in booths at shows. they want to pump through the material and collect as much cash as they can.

but you certainly don't need authentication in the form of 3rd party certificates to sell items. if you must have one, check out the authenticator, get the name of the person who is actually looking at your item. if they dont give it to you, then vote with your wallet and go elsewhere.

Travis Roste

[canjond]

Speaking of Spence, what does this COA mean?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-...item56446ab85a

It lists the keys as Branca and Barney. Does that mean the Jackie is not authentic? Why list those two guys as keys? In the past, I thought JSA would list textually if one of the signatures was bad or clubhouse. This, to me, is very confusing. Anyone know?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by canjond

Speaking of Spence, what does this COA mean?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-...item56446ab85a

It lists the keys as Branca and Barney. Does that mean the Jackie is not authentic? Why list those two guys as keys? In the past, I thought JSA would list textually if one of the signatures was bad or clubhouse. This, to me, is very confusing. Anyone know?

If you look in the bok at the upper left, there is general info about the itme, which lists the subject as "Jackie Robinson et al"

The "Keys" in the text are key signatures other than him. JSA thinks this Robinson is legit.

[Rich Klein]

But just to make a different point about autographs --

Back back in the day, one of the guys I used to work with at Beckett got an autograph from Frank (Big Hurt) Thomas in spring training in 1990. He got that autograph in person and I have no doubt that his is 100 percent authentic.

Yet, even he realized that said autograph would probably never pass authentication becuase the signature is so much clearer than the signature he had just a year or so later when he became a major league star.

The point is,... sigs do change --- and while it is more expensive -- sometimes in the show situation -- having the autograph autheticated at that point may save hassles later, especially is a signature changes over time (usually with people who are becoming more famous or having health issues)

Regards
Rich

[Mr. Zipper]

This is an unfortunate scenario that has probably played out many times. My sense is that certain heavily forged autographs are probably prone to getting the thumbs down if there is the slightest atypical characteristic.

The flip side of this scenario is that if JSA or PSA approves an item that looks the least bit fishy, certain attack sites will plaster it all over the front page and message boards screaming how incompetent they are and urge people to report them to the FBI.

Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I really do understand how some experienced hobbyists resent third party authenticators and how they seemingly swooped in and became the be all and end all. But I think the anger should really be reserved for the forging scum. They are the ones who created the [perceived] need for third party authenticators.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This is an unfortunate scenario that has probably played out many times. My sense is that certain heavily forged autographs are probably prone to getting the thumbs down if there is the slightest atypical characteristic.
The flip side of this scenario is that if JSA or PSA approves an item that looks the least bit fishy, certain attack sites will plaster it all over the front page and message boards screaming how incompetent they are and urge people to report them to the FBI.
Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I really do understand how some experienced hobbyists resent third party authenticators and how they seemingly swooped in and became the be all and end all. But I think the anger should really be reserved for the forging scum. They are the ones who created the [perceived] need for third party authenticators.

+1

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

You are paying for an opinion. Mistakes do happen as the process is not 100 percent full proof by a long shot. Mr. Spence, PSA and ALL the other "authenticators" are not wizards and/or superhuman(including the ones on this board). In fairness, do you have scans of the rejection letter and item that you can post? Sorry you had such a bad experience.

James Spence Authentications issues Letters of Authenticity (LOA). The word "authenticity" in the title gives the distinct impression that there is little wiggle room for doubt. If these are only "opinions" that are subject to change due to varying factors, then issue a Letter of Opinion (LOO). That is far more honest. By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

James Spence Authentications issues Letters of Authenticity (LOA). The word "authenticity" in the title gives the distinct impression that there is little wiggle room for doubt. If these are only "opinions" that are subject to change due to varying factors, then issue a Letter of Opinion (LOO). That is far more honest. By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

Dear.... Orioles1954,

Do you have an example of an LOO that you could post? The letters I have seen states "In our considered OPINION". Wiggle room??? One would have to be a fool to think it was not an opinion. The terms LOA and COA have been around far before JSA AND PSA when the vast majority of those items were bad. I sold my collection today, I would have each and every item accompanied by an LOA from JSA AND/OR PSA. Again, they are not flawlesss but they do bring the highest realized prices on average.

Ben

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Dear.... Orioles1954,

Do you have an example of an LOO that you could post? The letters I have seen states "In our considered OPINION". Wiggle room??? One would have to be a moron to think it was not an opinion. The terms LOA and COA have been around far before JSA AND PSA when the vast majority of those items were bad. I sold my collection today, I would have each and every item accompanied by an LOA from JSA AND/OR PSA. Again, they are not flawlesss but they do bring the highest realized prices on average.

Ben

As requested...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/...037fdcae_z.jpg

"Considered opinions are like.....". It's a wishy washy phrase that allows for shortcuts and backpeddling. I guarantee Mear's "opinion" was reached after far greater consultation than with the OP's item.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by orioles1954

as requested...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/...037fdcae_z.jpg

"considered opinions are like.....". It's a wishy washy phrase that allows for shortcuts and backpeddling. I guarantee mear's "opinion" was reached after far greater consultation than with the op's item.

are you seriously comparing mears with jsa and psa??? Case closed.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

are you seriously comparing mears with jsa and psa??? Case closed.

Whatever makes you feel better. It is honest. You asked for an example, I gave one...case...

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Whatever makes you feel better. It is honest. You asked for an example, I gave one...case...

You sure did.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

Would you have more confidence in PSA or JSA if they hired a "court certified" forensic document examiner?

Since being banned from eBay, FDEs such as Chris Morales, Nicholas Burczyk and Don Frangipani are probably looking for additional work.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Would you have more confidence in PSA or JSA if they hired a "court certified" forensic document examiner?

Since being banned from eBay, FDEs such as Chris Morales, Nicholas Burczyk and Don Frangipani are probably looking for additional work.

Hahaha...good point. I just wish the "considered opinions" are weighed in light of their leaders being long-time dealers rather than something more.