T205 American Beauty Back Question

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, in all these years of collecting T206's....NO one has seen a legitimate Red Cobb with a Red HINDU back. It is apparently a rule-breaker.


TED Z

First of all these threads are learning experiences for me....even if I have been told before , I tend to forget so appreciate the information being thrown out again. Ok, so if a T205 Cobby/Drum won't exist then I will be happy with a Johnson w/Hindu. I will spare ya'll showing it again. Maybe the next thread .

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.

John, Tim, Ted- I appreciate ya'll keeping the debate civil. It seems to me anything that is not proven 100% means there is still a chance that things can be proven differently...in other words I hope everyone making theories understands they are just that (as John said in a few more words than that). regards

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Why are you comparing "apples with oranges" ?

Can you please stick the the subject which pertains only to the T206's and T205's, as I have theorized......

TED Z

The very first line of my post spoke directly to the T206 issue. I couldn't have been anymore on subject with this point. Your anti Cobb Factory 649 theory shows a misunderstanding of the printing and distribution of T206's.

Second I spoke to my lack of knowledge of T205's with regard to the Hassan back and which subjects can be found with which Factory designation.

It would serve us both well if rather than being so quick to be condescending towards me you took the time to read and understand my posts before commenting on them.

Regarding the BL460/Red Hindu and American Beauty/Uzit, it has nothing to do with this subject. Being right about one thing doesn't make you right about another nor does it give you freedom from scrutiny. Each one of your theories must stand on it's own and no matter how sound anything previous may have been this one is unfounded speculation.

Originally Posted by Leon

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.

Leon - I have said many times that I understand why people have their doubts, but the front/back combo is a good one. I have never seen this card in person so I can't say that it's no good but many knowledgeable people have seen it and said it is good. I know other doctored Red Hindu's made it past the graders so it's possible it is bad but I think the majority of detractors haven't seen the card in person either and could just as well be wrong.

[teetwoohsix]

That was a great post Tim (as always),,and just on the topic of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu back......I can understand why people would be skeptical of the card since other "doctored' Red Hindu combo's made it past certain graders/TPG's- but I also think that since this IS a possible combo (based on other's hard work & research), and this card was auctioned by REA (Mr.Lifson has no problem rejecting cards/items he doesn't feel are legit, from what I've seen),,passed the grading process, has been viewed by veteran collectors who felt it was legit(that's based on what I've read here), and sold for large amounts of money when it has been auctioned,,,,,,,,,,I tend to want to think
it's legit.

I read the REA write-up of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu, and it was written very well, acknowledging this is THE only known card with this combo.......it did say they "heard" of another, but had never seen the other.

Now- fast forward to the recent T207 Lowdermilk with the Red Cross back. This card was unheard of until the recent find,,,and I wonder if it wasn't part of this find,and just popped up,would it too be put under the same scrutiny as the Red Cobb/Red Hindu? Keep in mind- This T207 Lowdermilk with the Red Cross back is THE ONLY KNOWN EXAMPLE in the hobby.

My point is- or my question is- does the Red Cobb/Red Hindu not have a "find" story behind it? Is that why it's hard for some to accept/believe? Was it just sitting in an old collection that someone sold/auctioned off with no "amazing find story" behind it?

Thanks for listening-

Sincerely, Clayton

*edit to add- I was writing my long winded post when you posted John- after reading your post, I realize there are stories I don't know about regarding this card.

[wonkaticket]

Clayton,

In a nutshell the Cobb in question has ties to a known person who was known for re-backing Cobb’s or creating forgeries.

Just like with Chan many of these cards end up with collectors who don’t know any better or deep down inside know better but want to believe.

Understandably very few folks would want to admit their pride and joy could be a creation. With the advent of TPG once it’s in a holder it becomes with many folks a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil situation.



The fact that the card sold in REA isn’t odd and certainly does not give credibility to any item. REA has sold a fair share of items that have been in question and remain in question also many times items are won back by the forgers themselves when the jig is up or to set values to set up private sales.

Scary out there so be careful and never be afraid to question something, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck most likely it’s too late and you’re ducked.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Leon I would be happy to share with you in private but even stated as theory (LOL or Survey) I’m not comfortable at this point mentioning in detail publicly I have my reasons when the time is right you know me not against a public smack down if you will.

The SGC 50 Mathewson Red Hindu was a re-back with no wrinkles FYI. Besides if I take the time to type it all out 9 times out of 10 I get told I'm a dullard who hasn't been doing this since the 80's

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks, I get what you're saying

I appreciate your response also- and look forward to the day we can all get the story behind the subject

Sincerely, Clayton

[Leon]

Hey John
No worries at all. I certainly understand about everything you said. All we can go by is the proof we have and our hobby experiences, to put it simply. I respect your experiences my friend.....now about those beers at the National....

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I read the REA write-up of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu, and it was written very well, acknowledging this is THE only known card with this combo.......it did say they "heard" of another, but had never seen the other.

For years people speculated about a Tango Eggs Cobb and whether it really existed or not. Someone claimed to own one but never produced a scan or any other proof to my knowledge and this caused greater speculation. Then earlier this year one was found, graded by SGC and auctioned. Tango Cobb is real.

I believe the Red Cobb/Red Hindu is about as scarce as a Broad Leaf 460 and I hope that one day another will surface and relegate the suspect REA example to a moot point.

Several new Uzit and brown Lenox have been confirmed in just the last year. Also recently lesser tough backs like Tolstoi and Old Mill have had new confirmations of examples that are 1 of 1 on pop reports or previously unknown. We're long from done confirming probable front/back combos within the T206 set and IMO anyone bold enough to claim that a card doesn't exist in spite of the data showing it's a possible/front back combo is taking a close minded approach and ignoring important information.

How does every thread started about other cards end up with T206's?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.

Leon, wouldn't be so sure on that I have knowledge that would say otherwise on this particular card.

I too am aware of the consignor of the Red Hindu and he is a good guy but he has had the unfortunate issue of buying a few bad cards. This same consignor also had the bad Drum Cobb that came from the same person who was re-backing Cobb’s the same Cobb that the Levy’s had the unfortunate issue of purchasing.

I think the combo is a real combo that can be found, however I have serious doubts of this card and will not post in depth details publicly.

I wouldn’t be tossing 30k at that card even with your wallet even if PSA says it’s real, sort of like buying any oddball from Pat Chan good or not it’s so tainted.

Cheers,

John

P.S. No problem on being civil I will continue to make an effort, with that being said I find Ted’s comments to Tim quite condescending perhaps it’s just me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Leon, wouldn't be so sure on that I have knowledge that would say otherwise on this particular card. .......I think the combo is a real combo that can be found, however I have serious doubts of this card and will not post in depth details publicly.

C'mon John, inquiring minds want to know? All you have to do is just say it's a theory.

I can't recall seeing another re-backed card (if that is what the prevailing thought might be) that has been in this nice of shape. The ones I see usually have had quite a bit of wrinkling to them. I am sure almost anything can be done with enough time and patience so I am not saying it's impossible, but I am not convinced as of right now, with the little I know of it. regards

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/169.html