Baby Got "Backs" T206

[ChiefBenderForever]

Very nice !! Outstanding ! Good to see you saved a space for the Ty Cobb back which is needed for compeltion. My reasoning is that if the Ty Cobb brand of tobacco was advertised in Grand forks, N.D. then it was more than regional and if not a T206 what is it ? Again congrats on a back run that is ' so fresh and so clean'

[sbfinley]

Awesome collection John. The eye appeal of those cards is amazing. Out of curiosity, if the t213's are ever combined with the t206s (as some here strongly believe) how many backs will that add to the list?

Here is the only t213 I own



Congrats John on a great accomplishment.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Awesome collection John. The eye appeal of those cards is amazing. Out of curiosity, if the t213's are ever combined with the t206s (as some here strongly believe) how many backs will that add to the list?

Here is the only t213 I own



Congrats John on a great accomplishment.

Steven - The Type 1 (1910) Coupon would be the only one to consider... Type 2 and 3 were from 1914 and 1919 respectively...

[Matthew H]

Thanks for sharing the site John. It's really fun to look at.

As far as the Cobb back, my vote is that you have to fill that last hole with something...

[tedzan]

DITTO....kiddo....to what you said, Johnny

In a previous thread (Jan 2009) we discussed this subject at length which included evidence referring to this card in the Spring of 1910......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...2Fty+cobb+back

Check-out the newspaper clippings from the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Georgia which refer to the availability of this card in March of 1910.


In my opinion, it is a "T206". The "glossy" argument is moot, as I have seen (and held in my hand) both glossy and non-glossy versions of this card....
prior to these cards being graded.


TED Z

[rp12367]

Amazing... great run John, I say no to the Cobb back, but it would be nice to fill that slot with something...

[wonkaticket]

Barry,

To answer your question on the “overprints” the two that have 649 overprints in red are real scraps one of a kinds if you will.

I view them as printer scraps with another factory’s markings upside down on the back not unlike Leon’s really cool brown Old Mill with many overprints. To me I draw the line on them like I do upside down backs, miscuts etc. a neat anomaly but not so much a separate back.

Quite simply my thought is that for whatever reason a sheet or sheets of these Old Mill southern cards were printed in “Brown” vs. the normal “Black”. At some point in their lives the sheet was used from the printing room floor and was used as a test sheet and received the markings from Sweet Caporal 649 Bar Overprint. In Leon’s cards case it got a few other brands applied as well and reverse wet sheet of Young lucky SOB.

As for normal “Brown” Old Mill’s at some point these cards were hand cut from the sheet and taken home or who knows perhaps stuck in packs nobody will never know for sure. To date no known factory cut “Brown” Old Mill card has surfaced. Brown Old Mills have only been found on Southern League “Brown” Hindu players to date, and most likely are not found on any Texas league players. All the confirmed “Brown” OM's are also found with “Brown” Hindu backs as well.

What is clear is for whatever reason the printers caught the mistake and clearly wanted this ad back printed in “Black” not “Brown” hence why there are so few examples floating today.

I would guess to say that there around less than 15 or so “Brown” Old Mills floating publicly today. Most are very rough cut or not to even there are about 4 really nice examples known in which the hand cut is straighter and are the backs are super clean.

Now there could easily be more examples locked away in collections that have yet to surface or the owners have simply failed to realize they are “Brown” and special.

Even grading companies have missed these cards, they catch the trimming but fail to see the “Brown” the last Goodwin card is a prime example of that.

As for the bogus Old Mill OP’s in black created by T206musuem owner Patrick Chan here is the article I put together for the FBI showing what is wrong with the cards for folks who may have missed that little drama.

http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/fraud...milloverprints

Thanks for all the kind words guys.

Jim B I know you need a “Brown” Old Mill and I may need Cobb so here’s the plan we share each other’s Cobb and “Brown” Old Mill I get every other weekend with them that way on any given Sunday we are both fully done.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Thanks John, and I see your point. Again, that's a really nice gallery of backs.

[Jaybird]

fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

[E93]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Barry,


Jim B I know you need a “Brown” Old Mill and I may need Cobb so here’s the plan we share each other’s Cobb and “Brown” Old Mill I get every other weekend with them that way on any given Sunday we are both fully done.

Cheers,

John

Sounds like we've got a deal. Congrats again on putting together such an amazing collection.
JimB

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

Sounds like we've got a deal.
JimB

There is still the question of supervised or unsupervised visits...and the issue of child support. I think we have enough lawyers on the board to draw up some papers to take care of these issues and we can get this over and done with.....

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

My reasoning is that if the Ty Cobb brand of tobacco was advertised in Grand forks, N.D. then it was more than regional and if not a T206 what is it ?

Hi Johnny - I just want to clarify something regarding your post. The Cobb brand of tobacco was not advertised outside of the state of Georgia. What was printed in the Grand Forks paper and other papers in Arizona and California was a brief story about Cobb having a tobacco named for him, not an advertisement.




The only actual advertisements were run in Georgia newspapers. The Macon Telegraph ran small one line advertisements like the following beginning February 8th and ran off and on for a month.




The only picture advertisement was run in the Augusta Chronicle for four consecutive weeks. Feb 20, 27, Mar 6, 13.

[wonkaticket]

Wow, Tim amazing info thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

John

[mrvster]

hey guys

One more stab-

all factory cut/issued in packs should be on the master list:

brown lenox, lenox, drum , hindu , piedy's, piedy 42's sov(green and apple) , sweet cap, even brown lenox etc etc....

basically anything "inserted" into the accepted distribution methods, ie packs of pied, american beauty, etc. etc.....


SOME ERROR BACKS were inserted into packs(4 back/2 back/sheet numbers/ miscuts) etc, just a printer not paying attention....but these are "anomalies" and should be catagorized in a special "subset" like Leon also resonated, but included as a subset of regular issued backs(cards that where actually inserted into packs and purchased)...


another subset:

any "pre-production cards" NOT OFFICIALLY INSERTED INTO PACKS...imo brown om were definitely NOT inserted into packs, nor were blank backs, yellow browns, red overprint bars, real proofs with cross hatches, Leons overprint back, anything that can be differentiated as "HAND CUT" were taken either pre/post production not officially issued...
hence....a third "back subset"


TY COBB-


lets put this to rest......a totally different card...ALTHOUGH ULTRA RARE , NOT A T206....should NOT be included...





1) MASTER LIST(brown lenox, bl 460, uzit, drum, lenox black, hindu red, broadleaf 350, carolina b, hindu brown , piedy 42, cycle 460, ab 350 no frame, sov 460, ab 460, tolstoi then follow Tim, Jim, or Johns scarcity lists...17 down....

2) subset anomaly / miscuts / (factory issued)????POSSIBLE SUBSET


3) Any scraps(pre production/ handcut/ not issued via normal distribution methods)=

brown om

yellow browns

printers proofs

freaks

ect







THIS IS ONLY ONE MAN'S OPINION


Respectfully submitted and open to debate,


JOHN VANDERBECK

[wonkaticket]

Johnny,

I agree with you for the most part however with anomalies it would be an impossible list and the set would never end sort of like OJ a new one would be added every time almost. It’s just they are anomaly’s hence nor rhyme or reason or consistency.

The reason I count Brown Old Mill is with the exceptions of Leon’s and the two know legit over prints there is a rhyme and reason to “Brown” Old Mill Southern League cards. They are found on a consistent series of players and with a degree of consistency in the way they look and feel much like blank backs.

The others like I have in my set miscuts, mistrikes, printers freaks, factory sheet numbers etc and there are few others out there that folks aren’t aware of are just too hard to define IMO. How would one define them “Miscut Piedmont 60/40”, “Miscut Sweet Caporal 10/90” it’s just way to open to interpretation and the checklist could be infinite.

I could go for this type of list…..though…


T206 Basic Back Set:

• All Piedmonts
• All Sweet Caps
• All Sovereign
• All American Beauty’s
• All Cycles
• All Broadleaf’s
• All Hindu’s
• Old Mill Southern (Black)
• Old Mill
• Lenox
• Lenox (Brown)
• Polar Bear
• Tolstoi
• Uzit
• El Principe De Gales
• Drum
• Carolina Brights


T206 Master Back Set:

• All Piedmonts
• All Sweet Caps
• All Sovereign
• All American Beauty’s
• All Cycles
• All Broadleaf’s
• All Hindu’s
• Blank Back
• Old Mill Southern (Black)
• Old Mill Southern (Brown)
• Old Mill
• Lenox
• Lenox (Brown)
• Polar Bear
• Tolstoi
• Uzit
• El Principe De Gales
• Drum
• Carolina Brights

One could potentially add miscuts and oddities to his or her back sets as icing on the cake sort of how I see it.

But cool topic and I’m always open to new ways of looking at this set.

For arguments sake I left Ty Cobb off I leave that up to you guys.

Cheers,

John

[Abravefan11]

NM

[E93]

I might add that a controlling share (66.7%) of F.R. Penn Tobacco Co. in the form of common stock was purchased by ATC in 1904 and remained in ATC control until its dissolution in 1911, but covering the time period when the Ty Cobb brand card was issued. Thus, like all other T206s, the Ty Cobb brand card was issued in the T206 time period (1910 according to the date of ads and articles about it) by ATC as a giveaway to help advertise and stimulate sales of one of its tobacco brands.
JimB