Shanus-REA suit

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, you want me to cite facts about how many hobby figures have actual criminal convictions? That's a laugh, try reading the board it's all there. And why not open your eyes a bit to the reality in this hobby? But then again you're probably one of the guys who thinks that Doug Allen and Bill Mastro are good guys because they send out free catalogs.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but to be honest -- I'm not really sorry. You can choose to fantasize about the tiny bit of fraud which exists in the hobby and I'll keep warning people about the fraud I see which is pervasive. I'm willing to bet, however, that only one of us has real knowledge of the widespread nature of the fraud in the hobby from shill bidding to card alterations--and it is not you.

Yes, Jeff, you're smarter than everybody else, and you're the only one with the "real knowledge," and you don't mind insulting people because you're so tough, and so on and so on. You win. Feel better now? Of course there's fraud in the hobby, and as an honest dealer I've always applauded every effort to expose it and stop it, including by Mike O'Keeffe, who is a friend of mine. I jumped into this originally only to dispute the assertion that "the hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters," a characterization I know to be false. By the way, Jeff, I'll be set up at tables 509-513 at the upcoming Oaks show and with Kevin Keating at the National if you think you're tough enough to show up and insult me to my face.
Hank Thomas

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Yes, Jeff, you're smarter than everybody else, and you're the only one with the "real knowledge," and you don't mind insulting people because you're so tough, and so on and so on. You win. Feel better now? Of course there's fraud in the hobby, and as an honest dealer I've always applauded every effort to expose it and stop it, including by Mike O'Keeffe, who is a friend of mine. I jumped into this originally only to dispute the assertion that "the hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters," a characterization I know to be false. By the way, Jeff, I'll be set up at tables 509-513 at the upcoming Oaks show and with Kevin Keating at the National if you think you're tough enough to show up and insult me to my face.
Hank Thomas

Hank, stop whining. And you're challenging me to a fight? Are you 12? Seriously? Why don't you take a pill and calm down.

And you challenged my assertion that there is a higher percentage of criminals in this hobby than in the fields of law, medicine, finance and the clergy. You were wrong when you said it and you're wrong now -- and that won't change no matter how hard you stamp your feet in frustration.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, stop whining. And you're challenging me to a fight? Are you 12? Seriously? Why don't you take a pill and calm down.

And you challenged my assertion that there is a higher percentage of criminals in this hobby than in the fields of law, medicine, finance and the clergy. You were wrong when you said it and you're wrong now -- and that won't change no matter how hard you stamp your feet in frustration.

...and you're always going to be right, right or wrong. What a jerk.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

...and you're always going to be right, right or wrong. What a jerk.

Hank, I never said I was a tough guy; I just said you were childish to threaten me. If I give you my lunch money will that make it better?

[CMIZ5290]

Hank- have to agree with jeff. This business from a percentage standpoint has been extremely tarnished with bad apples in the barrel. While there are other issues with our political and criminal agendas, i do believe it pales to the other, thanks

[drc]

I'll take the lunch money. I can probably get two lunches out of it here in Seattle.

[ls7plus]

Oh, Man! Two very good, very knowledgable hobby guys--can't we just agree to disagree? You should have seen the three-judge panel I had on a Michigan Court of Appeals case yesterday! Now there was some real cause to get feisty (I don't usually have to be cautioned about pounding the podium for emphasis in the course of oral argument, and reminded I wasn't giving closing argument to the jury)!!!

As Adam would say, it's just cardboard, dammit!

Larry

[Kenny Cole]

Wow, you actually get to have oral argument in state court appeals? I think the last time I did that was about 20 years ago. I go argue writs (in front of a referee) out at the state Supreme Court fairly frequently, but they practically never hear oral argument in actual appeals. My partners and I get to go visit with the esteemed jurists in the 10th Circuit occasionally (not by choice), but that never happens in state court. I remain conflicted about whether or not that's a good thing.

[egbeachley]

It seems to me about 1/3 to 1/2 of the auction houses have had "problems". Way, way higher than the other professions.

[Bill Stone]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Oh, Man! Two very good, very knowledgable hobby guys--can't we just agree to disagree? You should have seen the three-judge panel I had on a Michigan Court of Appeals case yesterday! Now there was some real cause to get feisty (I don't usually have to be cautioned about pounding the podium for emphasis in the course of oral argument, and reminded I wasn't giving closing argument to the jury)!!!

As Adam would say, it's just cardboard, dammit!

Larry

Larry --this reminded me of trying a case out in a country courthouse when the judge called us to the bench. I leaned on the bench and the judge said " don't lean on my bench " then he turned to my opposing counsel, a local, and said " I learned that from your daddy !" I went to the hallway and settled the case.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Hank- have to agree with jeff. This business from a percentage standpoint has been extremely tarnished with bad apples in the barrel. While there are other issues with our political and criminal agendas, i do believe it pales to the other, thanks

Many bad apples in the barrel, Kevin, so stipulated. But after watching the documentary "Inside Job" recently, I'm having a hard time seeing lawyers, financiers, economists, politicians, etc., and other professions in a very good light these days, either. At least our bad apples won't take the world down with them!
And I'm not a pollyanna type, I can be as cynical as the next guy. But I'll be doing the Oaks show next week with 300+ dealers and if there's going to be crooks there, I wish someone would tell me who they are, because after 15 years of doing shows, I don't think I could name any. And half the auction houses are crooked? Really? I'd sure appreciate knowing which ones, so we can all stop doing business with them. When I requested some evidence and some names, all I got was insulted for being so dumb as to ask. I'll match wits with anybody on this board, but what I can't understand is why all of us smart and educated people are still involved in this cesspool of illegal and unethical behavior? My business has actually held up very well during these lousy last couple of years. And in general, I just don't see the business folding its tent anytime soon.
Why is that? Are our customers so stupid or ill-informed that they don't know or don't care about the serial scandals that have been rocking the hobby for years? No, I'd guess it's because they know that in spite of all that, the great preponderance of dealers and yes, even auctions houses, go about their business earnestly and honestly and are not trying to steal their money. Bad apples? Plenty. Conflicts of interest? Sure. Rip-offs? You bet. Let's all work and campaign tirelessly to get them out of our hobby and into jail, if warranted. But let's not blow it all out of proportion. There's still a lot more good than bad, I'll say it again, and I just thought the good needed to be spoken for.
Hank Thomas

[calvindog]

Ryan -- I disagree on your conclusion on relative legal culpabilities but I applaud your sentiment. Kudos to you, you are to be admired for taking your stance.

Hank -- just because you have lots of great deals with people at shows for relatively minor dollars does not mean that the industry is mostly clean. It's not. There are millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in this hobby. Just because they don't advertise their fraud in neon lights doesn't mean it's not so. Maybe there will be a documentary about it someday and then you'll believe it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Ryan -- I disagree on your conclusion on relative legal culpabilities but I applaud your sentiment. Kudos to you, you are to be admired for taking your stance.

Hank -- just because you have lots of great deals with people at shows for relatively minor dollars does not mean that the industry is mostly clean. It's not. There are millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in this hobby. Just because they don't advertise their fraud in neon lights doesn't mean it's not so. Maybe there will be a documentary about it someday and then you'll believe it.

I'm going to take your word for it, Jeff, that there are "millions of dollars of fraud committed by auction houses and other cretins in the hobby." So stipulated. And I'm going to assume that you know a lot of things that haven't come to light yet, since as far as I know, even the Mastro /Legendary activities have only been investigated to this point. No indictments yet, right? And you are certainly correct that I've never been involved with auction houses for big money on the buying end, only selling, so maybe I've actually, and unwittingly, been the beneficiary of some of this.
So why are you big money guys still doing it? I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the sleazy morass you describe. And are any of the auction houses clean? Would you advise a total boycott of auctions? If not, how are the less well-informed going to proceed if you don't tell us who we can trust and who we can't?
I really do need the documentary because I live in another world altogether. And I still say, and maybe you will so stipulate, that if you take the dollar volume of all the honest dealings in the hobby (I'm talking web sites, eBay, shows, stores, private deals, honest auctions if there are any, etc.) it vastly outweighs the dollar volume of the scamming. What do you suppose the amount of sports memorabilia business on eBay is every day? Has to be in the millions, doesn't it? So maybe that volume equals the total of auction house fraud in a year? Does this bring our positions any closer together, then? Hopefully, at least the dialogue has improved, and that's progress.
Hank

[uniship]

I sort of agree with both Hankphenom and Calvindog at the same time. On one hand I truly believe there are hundreds of good, honest hard working dealers out there. On the other hand, it's impossible to dispute that there are some well-known bad apples that have a lot of influence in our hobby.

[Joe Hunter]

I have been involved in the hobby for about 30 years and still enjoy it. However, I have found it to be a virtual "Wild West" where just about anything goes and one must constantly be on his toes from a knowledge perspective. Otherwise, you will get burned, eventually. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a lot of, if not out-and-out unethical, at least questionable practices exist in the hobby. I am in agreement with Calvindog that percentage-wise, these practices are much more prevalent in the sportscard/memorabilia business than in any of the professions mentioned. I don't have statistics; this has just been by observation and experience over the years. Of course, there is going to be unethical behavior in all professions. We are dealing with human beings, afterall. I enjoy and participate in the hobby, but I do so with my eyes open.