Goodwin Auction is open + Peck & Snyder Discussion

[barrysloate]

Thanks Corey, that's really interesting. First, my source who told me there is no ad on the back is wrong, and I don't know where he got that information from. Second, since this too lists the Nassau Street address, and assuming the information is correct that the company moved there in 1870, then the Creighton is considerably later than we thought. Likewise, it may be possible that the whole set was issued at the same time (with the exception of Cincinnati, which was likely the only one popular enough to be reissued to satisfy demand).

This is still a work in progress, but fascinating. And boy, did they squeeze a lot of text onto the back of that Creighton.

[GaryPassamonte]

Corey,
Is the information printed on the card back? It looks like a part of a newspaper article that was affixed. This information does point to the Creighton being issued post 1870. The question remains as to why the reverse is so different to other known P&S cards. Could the Creighton have been more of a novelty item? It would be interesting to compare this to the reverse of the Atlantics P&S.

[barrysloate]

Some observations: there is heading at the top of the bio that is missing save the lower portion of the letters. It would be great if somehow we could figure out what it says. Also, the text refers to George Flanley as the current captain of the Excelsiors, but the team last played in 1867. Flanley was a member from at least 1862 until 1867, but I don't know what year he was made captain. There appears to be a year to the right of this notation, but the last two digits are trimmed away! Finally, if this is a newspaper clipping glued to the back, why is there a Peck and Snyder ad at the bottom of it?

[benjulmag]

The verso is not a newspaper clipping but in fact is printed on the card. If Flaney's last year with the Excelsior's was 1867, then that would suggest the latest the card could date from. When did the Excelsior's disband?

Also, the fact that P&S started referencing the 126 Nassau Street address in 1870 means nothing as to whether they could have been there previously. Maybe that was their first location, then they added another down the street and then consolidated back into Nassau Street. That would hardly be the first time a business did such a thing.

[barrysloate]

Corey- that's a good point, and critical.

We really do need an accurate timeline regarding where Peck and Snyder was, and when they were there, in order to figure this out.

[oldjudge]

Peck and Snyder did not join together till 1868; this is a fact. Therefore, forget trying to date the card pre-1868. Also, the George Flanley reference as "now Captain" sounds not like he is captain when the card was issued, but rather at a point in time they are talking about in the text.
My view is that all the team cards were issued in 1870 or later and that the Creighton card was issued as a commemorative, possibly on the anniversary of Creighton's death in 1872.

[barrysloate]

That's certainly a possibility Jay...and why are only four people partaking in this discussion? We're splitting the atom here, and nobody is watching.

[GaryPassamonte]

At this point I would have to agree with Jay. There are archived threads on this forum from 2004 and 2007 discussing Peck, P&S, as well as the addresses of each chronologically. These are referenced to the Beadle Guides and the Library of Congress. On the web,19cbaseball.com gives a chronology of Peck and P&S also. The information gives 5/1/1870 as the date of P&S first being at 126 Nassau St. I realize this would need to be corroborated, but the information is there. Finally, John Thorn wrote a biography about Creighton for SABR. At its conclusion he references the Creighton card, although he calls it a CdV. He speaks about Mark Rucker and his viewing of the card's reverse in 1983 while working on the 19th century issue of the National Pastime. He states that the biographical text on the back of the card was glued on. Maybe John could come on and elaborate on that.