T206 green portrait Cobb centering....SURVEY....updated

[tedzan]

Several of us T206 "dinosaurs" got together for an old-fashioned swap meet here in Pennsylvania this past weekend. I got six new inputs
to this survey from this group. Furthermore, I obtained 15 inputs from calls to fellow T206 collectors (who are mostly not Net54 members,
but are known of by some Net54er's). I'll name eight of them .... John Dorsey, Tom Faith, Don Flewelling, Dave Hayward, Bob Krause, Greg
Lacivta, Mark Macrae, Ralph Triplette, etc. Lest, a certain party here (with an agenda) chimes in and accuses me of...."ARBITRARILY PUL-
LING OUT NAMES FROM NOWHERE".

Here's how I acquired my first Cobb. In 1982, at a small BB card auction in Toms River (NJ) I won a green Cobb for an unbelievably low bid.
Most at this auction were interested in the Pete Rose rookie and the 1982 Topps black ink variations. This Cobb was a PIEDMONT 150, it
was off-center, and in VG condition. I sold this Cobb at the Willow Grove show, and bought an Excellent Cobb from Wayne Miller. The Cobb
I got from Wayne was a PIEDMONT 150, and it too was off-center (to its top border).

My curiosity was aroused, so I have been tracking green Cobb's since the early 1980's. I have seen several 100's of the green Cobb cards.
The PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAPORAL green Cobb's are usually centered. I cannot vouch for the OLD MILL version, as I've
seen very few of them.
Look, we can continue to run this survey to "infinity"....or, when we run out of green Cobb's....whichever occurs first
The result will still be the same..approximately 9 out of every 10 green Cobb's (with PIEDMONT 150 backs) will be off-center to its top border.







Green Cobb survey .................... updated 3/22


39 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) ...................... 39/45 = 87 %

6 == PIEDMONT 150 (centered)

4 == PIEDMONT 350 (centered)

1 == PIEDMONT 350 (off-center)

1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (centered)

1 == SOVEREIGN 150 (off-center)

9 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (centered)

1 == SWEET CAPORAL 150 (off-center)

5 == SWEET CAPORAL 350 (centered)

2 == SWEET CAPORAL ? (off-center)

1 == OLD MILL (centered)



TED Z

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

39 = PIEDMONT 150 (off-center) ...................... 39/45 = 87 %

Even based on your relatively low sample size (45), it is reasonable (95% confidence rate) that 87% (plus or minus 10%) of all P150 Green Cobbs are off-center.

I used the confidence interval calculator and assumed a population of 10K P150 Green Cobbs (note that the value doesn't change even if I go up to 100K).

[peterb69]

Ted, thanks for this information. I also have an off centered green cobb piedmont 150 card. I think your sampling proves that the majority are off centered.

Question I have is why? Did they run a few sheets of just Cobb cards as he was a well known player then? Or did the position of Cobb on the sheet was on the top row? If so, then everyone on the top row should also be not centered.

Curious as to the why.

[wonkaticket]

Ted, I count 12 P150's in this thread centered now 13 with Peter's FWIW you only count six....I guess that's ok though..no need to get bogged down with math.

"Lest, a certain party here (with an agenda)"

Ted you can say my name it's ok. As stated before no agenda just calling it as I see it.

You continue to miss the point I have pointed out this entire time I think you only want to hear what you want to hear. But there is no need to see my views afterall I'm just some rookie and your the expert.

John

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Ted, thanks for this information. I also have an off centered green cobb piedmont 150 card. I think your sampling proves that the majority are off centered.

Question I have is why? Did they run a few sheets of just Cobb cards as he was a well known player then? Or did the position of Cobb on the sheet was on the top row? If so, then everyone on the top row should also be not centered.

Curious as to the why.

There's only one post here authored by Peter and he has clearly stated that his PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb is...." OFF-CENTER ".

Watch it....your "agenda" is blinding you to the facts.


T

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Watch it....your "agenda" is blinding you to the facts.
T

And your ego is messing with your basic math skills then there are still 12 P150's in this thread even if Peter's is OC that you only counted 6 of. LOL

Rock solid Ted, I guess my agenda has caused you to miss count your own survey..but I bet you already know you missed them...I guess you were just testing me again. LOL


"you must snatch the Cobb OC card from my hands, 95% of rookies such as yourself fail...look it up I did a survey"

"the facts", theres a phrase you tend to say a bit much...but ok here are some facts there are 12 P150's in this thread alone, of which you only counted 6 so going off %'s you missed 50% of the cards pictured in your own survey! But that still didn't stop you from posting your % numbers and claiming them as fact.

That is exactly the whole point Ted. Tossing numbers around and or taking selective info and tweaking it to fit your needs is not objective and will never make something fact. I'm sure I'm alone on this but that's ok by me.

Having a handfull of cards posted here or talked about in collecting cirlces doesn't prove anything. Also your own, or someone elses collecting experiance with a certain card is also not a summary of a card and it's place in the hobby. To draw % from that and base that as fact or gospel is ripe for error.

As this very survey shows you said 95% off all Cobb's are OC I said how did you some to that summary? So unless exactly 95% of all Cobb's shown here are OC then this very post which was to prove your point actually proves mine. I never said the majority of Green Cobb's were not OC. In fact I said most are, even non P150 Cobb's tend to come OC.

You were the one who said 95% of all P150 Cobbs were OC, which by this very own thread they are not. That means your numbers by thier very nature were incorrect.

Cheers,

John

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

And your ego is messing with your basic math skills then there are still 12 P150's in this thread even if Peter's is OC. LOL

Hey John and Ted
This stuff is supposed to be fun. Please take it easy on each other. Next time we all meet you guys can leg wrestle or something.....See ya'll at Oaks....

[FrankWakefield]

Amen, Leon.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

That is exactly the whole point Ted. Tossing numbers around and or taking selective info and tweaking it to fit your needs is not objective and will never make something fact. I'm sure I'm alone on this but that's ok by me.

No, you're not alone on this.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

"you must snatch the Cobb OC card from my hands, 95% of rookies such as yourself fail...look it up I did a survey"

LOL! Classic.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Ted, thanks for this information. I also have an off centered green cobb piedmont 150 card. I think your sampling
proves that the majority are off centered.

Question I have is why? Did they run a few sheets of just Cobb cards as he was a well known player then? Or did
the position of Cobb on the sheet was on the top row? If so, then everyone on the top row should also be not centered.

Curious as to the why.

Thanks for your input. It's anyone's guess why this particular green Cobb is predominately found off-center (and towards the top border).
Unfortunately, to date, no uncut sheets of T206's have been found.

Regards,

TED Z

[danmckee]

I own 4 green Cobbs, I have one on ebay which I think you people addressed here already.

To say Ted's survey has proved anything is ridiculous. You people have no clue how many huge collections of raw vintage cards are in old timers collections. I visited a gentleman who has 3 T206 sets less the biggies, a T205 set and a T207 set. He doesn't even collect cards, he is a memorabilia giant. There are 3 green's right there that you have no clue are centered or not.

If there are 300 or 500 green Cobbs out in the hobby, and Ted has survey'd 30, is that a good testing environment? Can you take the 30 and say the results cover the remaining hundreds that you didn't see? I say no. Is it possible? Of course Ted's survey may cover the majority but it is also very possible that it doesn't. If Ted survey'd half of them or 3/4s then ok, that is proof. But these little wannabe surveys here on this board are not proving anything with the population of any fairly common cards in the hobby.

Has Ted done a good job? Of course he has, he loves it and is passionate about it. But does his work prove anything? Be realistic folks.

It is neat to see the results Ted comes up with during these mini surveys but as far as proof positive, nah.

[FrankWakefield]

I would imagine, Dan, Wonka, Rob D, and Jim (where ever you are), that when you see my name beside this thread on the front page, you can predict what I've posted. That's what I did when I saw Rob and then Dan.

Ted didn't base his opinion on two and a half dozen cards seen here. He based it on 30 plus years of attentive collecting, which is longer than many here have been out of diapers. What you've done, Dan, is characterize what Ted said in a way so you can take a stab at it. Post #21 is Ted's, and it explains his experience in handling thousands of T206s. I'd think he's sold more T206's than half of the folks on this board have ever seen. Ted's thread does prove something, that most of those green Cobbs with a Piedmont 150 back are off center.

When you guys jump the old timers, you sometimes run them away for a while, or for good. The jumping adds nothing to the board. The departure of the guys that really know about cards and share that knowledge, that definitely subtracts from it. When a turd lands in a cesspool, it obviously isn't alone.

I don't completely agree with part of Ted's initial post, where he says if centering is important then avoid Piedmont 150 green Cobbs... I'd love to have a worn, off center green Cobb.

So PEACE, guys.

[danmckee]

Actually Frank, I gave Ted a very nice compliment that you have seemed to miss. That he does a good job and is passionate about his work.

I think you are mistaken that Ted has handled and sold thousands of T206's. Hundreds maybe but the Ted I remember at the Willow Grove shows and onward was a late 1940s guru. He knew the Bowman, Bond Bread, Bowman PCL issues inside and out. We would all crawl to him for late 40s expertise.

Ted always had a few T206s at the shows but usually just a junk box of them which he likes to sell at $10 to $20 each. I have picked through that box for many years, it is like treasure hunting.

I also do not appreciate you telling me my thinking for my post, to stab at him. You are wrong once again sir. I was merely trying to point out that a test group of a small amount of anything is not necessarily a good indication of the entire group.

If my post chases anyone away, then shame on them.

If you will notice, I am not on here any more but maybe you feel I have nothing to bring to the board.

I have been chased away by the lack of collecting the way I know it from the 1970s and 80s and the new theme the hobby has taken.

So, I will run away again, enjoy your board full of self proclaimed experts.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by danmckee

If there are 300 or 500 green Cobbs out in the hobby, and Ted has survey'd 30, is that a good testing environment? Can you take the 30 and say the results cover the remaining hundreds that you didn't see? I say no.

I guess it depends on the definition of good testing environment. Statistics are used all the time using small sample sizes to extrapolate to the actual population (polling estimates, Nielsen ratings, etc.). Statistically, given a universe of 500 and a sample size of 30 with a percentage of 87, you can be reasonably confident (95%) that the margin of error is +/- 12%. In other words, it is 95% probable that the actual percentage in the population is between 75% and 99%.

Plug in any numbers you want in the "Find Confidence Interval" calculator here: http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

[wonkaticket]

Erick,

Mathematically speaking...math sort of goes out the window when in this very thread 12 examples are posted and only 6 are counted...I'm no Stephen Hawking but I would guess that tweaks the results a bit....

John

[Tsaiko]

Here's another P150> The lipstick on the forehead variation - j/k.

Looking at the back scans of the two that are graded (that are in the box), it at least appears that one has a tall top border, but I will get to those, eventually, and post scans.