JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[pscolgrafs]

With all due respect, it essential that the hobby be able to trust SOME OUTFIT out there. If there is no one to trust, there is uncertainty, confusion and collectors will give up. Sure, there are people here that HATE authenticators and proclaim themselves to be experts, but I bet these individuals won't get top dollar for their items since they are rather unknown to a large majority of the collecting population.

After all, didn't David (I believe you are murderer's row on eBay at the time)sell a pencil cut of Chesbro with two authenticating papers to go with it? Why not have it authenticated by PSA or JSA where he could have gotten maybe 5X the amount you got.

And if you sold that 1927 Yankees ball, don't you think you would get some authenticators to agree with your opinion and wouldn't you want to get the most out of it and go to the most popular and marketed firm?

Sure I get frustrated like all of you as I really want to believe these guys are doing a great job, but sometimes they look so damn stupid.

As far as AutographAlert's challenge. That was done so long ago. Old news. I have enclosed to a scan of an Andy Warhol signature that Stephen Koschal has authenticated. Now I don't know the first thing about Andy Warhol, but the cover says March 9, 1987, right? Warhol died on February 22, 1987.

Could it have been signed?

Most likely it was an issue dedicated to the life of a great artist.

[Exhibitman]

Classic...Reminds me of a yellow HOF plaque of Eddie Collins that I saw once offered on Ebay. I emailed to seller to inform him that the card was made several years after Collins' death...

[Lordstan]

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.
I have heard no one here proclaim they are "experts", but I know many, including myself, that are comfortable, which some exceptions, making their own decisions about whether an auto is good or not, regardless of which third party person is involved.
The problem with this specific test is not that JSA made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.
The way I see it is that one of two possibilities exist: 1)JSA rejected these items out of hand because of the Morales cert or 2)they are unable to certify items they previously thought were real for multiple reasons.
In the first scenario one could argue, as David stated before, for theft. They were paid for a service and did not provide it. In the second scenario, one has to question the skill of the authenticator. All the items previously passed and now they all fail for 10-12 reasons. How did they miss all 10 things before?
Considering the price they charge for their services, I guess I expect more.


Also in Karl's example, the shaved t206 would have some residual value, but then again so would the original t206, Type 1 photo, baseball program, or vintage baseball that has a fake autograph on it. The only place this would not apply would be the cut signature, where the paper would have no intrinsic value.

Mark Velarde

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.

Mark, what you say is great in theory. Unfortunately while many of us here have reached that stage as collector's I am guessing that the majority of the autograph buying public has not (and never will). So when it's time to sell, without that trusted third party authentication, your buying audience will be greatly diminished thereby reducing demand and, in turn, reducing value.

[Lordstan]

Phil,
I agree, that the "general" public are the ones who need third party certs the most, but with a few caveats.

First, I don't think the "general" autograph buying public is going to be going after the majority of the high end autographed items that collectors have on this board. Having any of the authenticators' certs isn't going to make the general public pay $5k for a cut sig of Gehrig or $60K or more for David's 27 Yanks ball. Besides the little problem of actually having the available money to spend, I think it takes a special type of person to spend that type of money on a piece of sports memorabilia, card, or autograph. I just don't see the average wife saying go ahead spend 20K on a signed ball, we don't need to use it for a whole host of things around the house. If you do have that loose change, you're make up a very tiny part of the "general" autograph buying public.

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

For me, when the time comes to sell all my stuff, it'll probably go to an auction house that can do whatever it wants, authentication wise, and then send me a check.

Best,
Mark

[mr2686]

Hey Mark...I thought I had first dibs before the auction houses?

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school. I am fortunate to be born into a collecting family. My earliest memories of Christmas were my parents getting each other not clothes, not perfume, not jewelry, but antiques. In fact, my parents, myself, and wife still get each other antiques and whatever we collect for Christmas.

My dad has assembled a simply FANTASTIC collection of vintage oil cans and advertising porcelain and (VINTAGE) metal signs that would make the American Pickers weep.

I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

I see my younger cousins nowadays not collecting sports cards, but all that Pokeman stuff. The few card stores that remain within reasonable distances from me seem to have more Pokemon and non sports cards than baseball cards. I cringe at the prices on modern insert cards. I don't feel bad spening over $3,000 for a Honus Wagner cabinet photo when I Pujols refractor signed limited edition whatcha-ma-callit is "valued" at 5x that. I have yet to honestly run across anyone my age, or just a few years older/younger that deals with vintage sports stuff, let alone "quality" vintage material.

As for the first part I quoted, I strive one day to have my name known in the hobby as those guys. I can think of five guys off of the top of the head that weren't listed, but I trust with all my heart and soul. I am also not one to get caught up in 3rd party authenticators. Sure, I may buy stuff every now and then with a cert from them, but I have to feel good about it. I have seen too many slabbed fake Maris and Mantle sigs on eBay for my liking.

My first PSA horror story I ever heard was an area guy acquiring 3 Tiger Woods signs on 3x5s early in Woods' pro career at a tourney. I saw all three, one looked a bit rushed, which is common, the other 2 were textbook examples of early Woods sigs. He sent them to PSA, 2 came back slabbed, the other was deemed unauthentic. Funny that the rushed sig was one of the ones to come back slabbed!

Anyways, I do think about how the vintage hobby will look like in 30-40 years, let alone 20-30.

[parker1b2]

[QUOTE=whitey19thcentury;873250]Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school.
I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

QUOTE]

Glad to see someone around my age, I'm 33, into vintage memorabilia and autographs. I feel sometimes like I am a dying breed of younger collectors who are into the vintage items. I remeber in High School and College talking about autographs that I had, and most of my friends never even heard of the players.
One thing I really miss about this hobby is the lack of Card Shows. It seemed like almost every month my father was driving me to shows all over NJ. Now they seem like they are few and far between.

[Piedmont Sport]

As I said before auction houses KILLED it - STAMP OUT AUCTIONS Dealers are now becoming auction houses - alot easier making 30% and not laying any money out or humping the cards and material in and out - standing 40 hours a weekend and eating shity food - and overpaying to support the promoters - who by the way are now auction houses. I could go on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tinkereversandme]

1) To say that there were no need for third party authenticators before third party authenticators doesn't necessaily understand that it is a different collecting world with more emphasis on purchasing things through scans and photos, instead of a show or a periodical and there has been a massive increase in fraud.

2) I don't collect because of the fraud and I know a number of people who don't either. Six former collectors. I always wanted a Babe Ruth ball, but since there are so few people I trust, I choose to invest/spend those moneys in other collecting avenues. You say "these guys are good", but those guys are hardly known to the average collector and if PSA/DNA, Jimmy Spece go down, there will be uncertainty with everything they have ever authenticated and nobody will know what is actually good or bad as I find it almost impossible to believe that even a small percentage of the ones offered monthly are good as while the Babe signed, did he sign that much? Not to mention I have heard some horror stories about even the better sellers and wasn't Halper one of the better people in the hobby? So if the two bigger firms go down, everyone will assume that what they have is authentic (which they do anyways even the Morales pundits) and we will be far worse off as a hobby to not have faith in at least someone.

3) I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

1) To say that there were no need for third party authenticators before third party authenticators doesn't necessaily understand that it is a different collecting world with more emphasis on purchasing things through scans and photos, instead of a show or a periodical and there has been a massive increase in fraud.

2) I don't collect because of the fraud and I know a number of people who don't either. Six former collectors. I always wanted a Babe Ruth ball, but since there are so few people I trust, I choose to invest/spend those moneys in other collecting avenues. You say "these guys are good", but those guys are hardly known to the average collector and if PSA/DNA, Jimmy Spece go down, there will be uncertainty with everything they have ever authenticated and nobody will know what is actually good or bad as I find it almost impossible to believe that even a small percentage of the ones offered monthly are good as while the Babe signed, did he sign that much? Not to mention I have heard some horror stories about even the better sellers and wasn't Halper one of the better people in the hobby? So if the two bigger firms go down, everyone will assume that what they have is authentic (which they do anyways even the Morales pundits) and we will be far worse off as a hobby to not have faith in at least someone.

3) I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

This is like saying "I'll never go in the water again if the maker of my water wings fails."

Learn to swim.

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

Larry, with all due respect, there is still a lot of rare items out there to be had. Just a few moments ago, I was looking at a respected dealer's fixed price listings on eBay. He had upwards of several hundred items that could be considered rare if not one-of-a-kind. Over the years, I have taken advantage of numerous fixed price/Buy-It-Now items on eBay b/c of rarity.

I am not one to show off pieces in my collection, but I can think of 5 things off of the top of my head that I purchased on eBay that I know would sell for way more in several auctions.

As someone who both buys and sells on eBay and buys from/consigns with several auctionhouses, I can speak from experience when I say this: Sure, there are items that can be had cheaper at auction, but in a lot of cases, there are way more "steals" on eBay. Having the time and patience to search eBay really pays off.