Beware Carterscards2006

[oldjudge]

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

Absolutely, and I believe that, as upstanding guys, that Scott and Leon would. They would then return the card to the seller (losing only the buyers commission) and the seller would have to take it up with SGC.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

Absolutely, and I believe that, as upstanding guys, that Scott and Leon would. They would then return the card to the seller (losing only the buyers commission) and the seller would have to take it up with SGC.

What if they had already paid the consignor?


They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for.


You don't think the consignor is going to put up a fight with B&L after being told they are having a card returned to them in a state different then what was initially sent out..............oh and by the way.......return the check we paid out to you?

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don't know what type of lawyer you are, but if I hire you to represent me in court of law and lose my case, will you refund my money because I am not happy with the outcome? After all, the customer is always right, right?

[pwilk17]

HMMMM - Perhaps an apology is in order. If the new management team at SGC are the same people as in this article (This article is definitely worth a read),

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

then perhaps SGC is the new be all and end all in card grading. The people in the article are very sure of themselves. Now I do not know for certain that these are the new people running the show at SGC (that is an unconfirmed rumor), however, if they are, this changes everything. If these people say the card is trimmed, then it must be trimmed - look at their vast experience with autographs.

[nolemmings]

I don't know what type of lawyer you are, but if I hire you to represent me in court of law and lose my case, will you refund my money because I am not happy with the outcome? After all, the customer is always right, right?

Show me where I said the customer is always right. Your failure to grasp the concepts of my complaint is nearly stupifying to me. Re-read post #1 and see why I posted. I got no response from this guy--Mr. Customer Service, not so much as a sorry, no refunds, no discussion. Left me to either eat $1000 or take it up with Ebay. You can disagree with me when I say I think I'm entitled to a refund--I expected that. But have the courtesy to not put words in my mouth.

[pwilk17]

Todd - I am not looking to quarrel with you - I am just looking to make a point.

Here is what you said;

Frank, I don't need the card to be graded by SGC "in the first place". I have cards from these sets in all 5 company holders, including one "PRO" that I know to be authentic and unaltered, albeit overgraded. The holder means nothing to me so long as the card is good. Similarly, I didn't care about the numeric grade, and I submitted this with a request for a minimum 60. I didn't/don't need just a nm example of this card-- I would take one in most grades and my collection of this set spans from grades 2 to 8, depending on back.

I submitted this card because I was concerned about its being trimmed--while some don't mind altered cards, I do, and certainly so at the non-altered price. I submitted it within 24 hours of receiving it, and requested the 24 hour turnaround time, both out of fairness to the seller--if I was going to seek a refund I wanted to do so timely.

If you not need the card to be graded by SGC, then why send it to them in the first place and why are you taking their word that it is trimmed? GAI could easily be correct and SGC could easily be wrong.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You failed to answer your question so never mind, Todd. You show your true character and I'm sure you'll get exactly what you deserve in the end - NOTHING! But hey, keep us updated as I would like to know the outcome. If you win the case, I think I will adopt your business practice - buy a card on eBay that is graded by a TPG, attempt to cross it over to another TPG and if it fails to cross over whine for my money back. After all, what would I have to lose?

[nolemmings]

Pardon me if my frustration shows in some of these later posts. I recognize that many here have not read the entire thread or have only skimmed it. Of course, no one is under any obligation to read any or all of it, or to care. Thus far, I have felt compelled to keep defending myself, when it seems that many of the points raised against me either misapprehend what I am saying, misstate it, or ignore it altogether. I am losing my compulsion to keep returning to these same points, many of which are adequately addressed by others here.

So what is the beef here pwilk--let's get you pinned down at least. To paraphrase what I mentioned earlier, if I gathered a hundred of you to review the card and everybody concluded that the card was trimmed, would that satisfy you? Or is it still too bad so sad, no returns. Many here dart back and forth on why I lose, where are you? If you think that I'm stuck whether or not I can prove it is trimmed, fine, state so, and allow me to respectfully disagree. If you feel I cannot possibly prove it to be trimmed and that I lose for that reason, say so, and again allow me to disagree. I fully understand my legal and evidentiary burdens, and I recognize that I am not always right. I think I have a case, you do not. But why not comment on the lack of customer service that caused me to neg this guy and sparked me to write this thread? Anyone.... Beuhler? Should I have given him 5 stars for communication?

As for your question, I have handled thousands of these cards over the years, and have a decent eye on what to spot. The cards are not uniform in size--there is variance-- and so specs are of limited help. When I received the card--which BTW arrived back yesterday from SGC in the GAI holder, as expected, I was concerned about it being trimmed. I wanted another set of eyes on it, and couldn't have cared less what grade it got so long as it was not trimmed. I trust SGC. Yes, I get it--they are not infallible, and if ultimately a judge or jury were to side with some other expert, I would be disappointed that SGC got it wrong. I would then "Man up" and accept the decision. As it stands, though, I believe the card is trimmed. If forced to keep it I will sell it with the notation that SGC has deemed it trimmed. If thereafter it was cracked out, submitted to PSA or Beckett and returned with a number grade I would not bid on it at any price.

[pwilk17]

I told you - I do not have a beef with you at all. I am making a point. When you bid on the GAI 7.5 card knowing there were no refunds - the case should be closed. As an experienced collecter you as much as anyone know the possibilities buying any card in any TPG holder. Read the post from Peter Spaeth - he says the same thing. I have bought many cards in many situations - Ebay, Large Auction Houses and Privately in all different holders - BVG, PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO and others. It is always a crap shoot as to whether any other grading company will agree with the first grading company. That is the risk you take if you bid on that item in an auction - you know the holder - it is an important part of your decison whether to bid or not. SGC could also easily be wrong - it may not be trimmed. Also, how does the seller know that the buyer will not return a very similar card to the one the seller sent (a different yet very similar card - possibly trimmed) in the same holder? It has been done many times before.

[nolemmings]

vintagetoppsguy

I will answer your question, although I question your willingness and ability to understand my answer. BTW, let's see how many here consider your question as to my profession and fees as relevant or in any way analogous.

I provide a service for a fee. I make no guarantees as to outcome. I tell you what you will get from me for your money, how litigation works, what the strengths and weaknesses of your case are, a list of potential outcomes, my assessment of the probability of each, how it might affect your business or life in ways that you might not have anticipated, whether there are other professionals whose advice you should consider seeking, e.g. tax and licensing, etc. You pay for your fair day in court. If I fail to provide you adequate representation, you can take it up with the State Bar and/or, depending on the inadequacy of my performance, sue me for malpractice. If you are correct, you will be paid--even beyond what you paid me if the evidence so warrants.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the issues at hand. BTW, of those steps I outlined above, none has been taken against me in 25+ years of practice. Thank you for impugning my "true character" though.

[Ladder7]

Supporters of the buyer or seller, each will be overly cautious when bidding on his items.

Seller should realize, Regardless of who is right or wrong, his future sales will take knocks.

Stating the obvious, Assume all GAIs are an "A", at best.

[oldjudge]

They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for


Not sure what kind of math you are using. They charge buyers 12.5% and do not charge sellers. They would refund to the auction winner what he paid. They would give up the 12.5% the made before and, at worst, lose what the card sold for. But, since auction checks typically don't go out for almost a month after the auction ends they would still have not paid the consignor so it would not be an issue. If the auction winner informed B&L that there was a question with the lot they would withhold consignor payment until the issue was resolved.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for


Not sure what kind of math you are using. They charge buyers 12.5% and do not charge sellers. They would refund to the auction winner what he paid. They would give up the 12.5% the made before and, at worst, lose what the card sold for. But, since auction checks typically don't go out for almost a month after the auction ends they would still have not paid the consignor so it would not be an issue. If the auction winner informed B&L that there was a question with the lot they would withhold consignor payment until the issue was resolved.

This assumes every part of the transaction and turnaround, re-grading, etc...was done in a timely manner.

Somewhere along the way things inevitably will get dragged out in most transactions such as this.

What happens if the buyer decides to cross-over a card a month after they bought it from B&L, and it doesn't come back as they expected?

The consignor has already been paid and cashed the check. Is B&L still on the hook?

$1000 card + 12.5% buyers premium = $1125. A month later buyer comes back and say PSA doesn't quite like this SGC card.

B&L refunds the buyer the full $1125, they have already paid the consignor $1000 according to their terms.

Yes, they have the card back. They can re-auction it as a suspect card now, even if it somehow sells for the full price it originally sold for..........they are still $1000 in the hole for the amount they sent to the consignor...........good luck getting that back.

Seems like a pretty big hit to me for the chance to make 12.5% off a sale.





Maybe Leon and Scott are ok with this. I don't know. I think it would give anybody pause to just brush off as a cost of doing business, no matter their ethical standing.