How to tell a Koester Bread from an E121 or W575?

[rhettyeakley]

The Brown card was easy because he was only found in the Koesters set--he wasn't printed at all by the American Caramel Co. as part of either the E121 series of 80 or 120.

The Hoyt was printed in both sets. The fact that they were found together probably means that the Hoyt is in fact a Koesters card (blank backed) but it is also entirely possible that the Hoyt could have an American Caramel back if it were to be soaked--as I can't tell through the thick paper if there is any printing on the back. So in short likely a Koester's card BUT it could be a E121 Series of 80 (if it is somewhat thicker) or E121 Series of 120 if the card is thinner (120 series was printed on thinner stock than the series of 80).

-Rhett

[dougscats]

So, can I take it that these cards are safe to soak?
[I know, for instance, that T206's and their kind are safe to soak.]

Any particular instructions/advice, particularly when drying?

I know there's always some risk, but the gamble is surely worth if it can be done. I'd appreciate anyone with knowledge in this area weighing in.

Thanks.

Doug

[rhettyeakley]

I'd be very careful if you did soak it because the E121's don't soak as well as some cards do. Also, you need to be aware that the ink on the extra paper on back will likely stain the card on back so I'd probably advise against it altogether. Whenever a card has been pasted right on top of ink on the paper it will run the risk of staining.

If you do put it up or auction here on this site I'd be more interested in it as is than if you soaked it.

[dougscats]

Thanks again, Rhett, and I'm listening to you.

Perhaps using an iron might work? [I can remember doing postage stamps that way when I was a kid.]--maybe dampening a handkerchief and putting it between the back of the card and the iron?

Maybe I should send it to a pro?--there are such, I believe, and right here on Net54--Maybe I should post another message, asking for such?

Rhett, you say you'd rather buy it as is, and I'd rather sell it that way.
But how much is the card worth: 1. If it's [relatively] conclusive that it is a Koester's Bread [if the paper on the back is removed and it's not an E121]? 2. If it's as is, where there is some circumstancial evidence that it is a Koester's but one can't be certain--How much are you willing to gamble on that?

I tried to check prices, but I'm not a VIP member and couldn't find out.

So, let's say I leave it as is. I'm not sure I want to put it up for auction as such. But I will field offers. You can post one or send me a pm while I decide what to do.

Again, I appreciate the board's help and expertise.

[brianp-beme]

I am not familiar with the Koester issue, having never owned an example, but I had great success soaking a group of E121's, mostly 80 series, a few years back. I also have had E120's that were a bear and caused back damage havoc when I soaked them...I think it was the glue used that caused the difference in how they soaked. Like Rhett has mentioned that ink writing might transfer onto the cards. The E121's I soaked were pasted onto red-lined ledger paper, and well, the cards now have red lined backs. Fortunately they were all trimmed, so those red lines almost add to their overall appeal.

Brian

[fkw]

use a wet tissue, dabbing the back and get just the scrapbook paper and glue wet, try to keep from completely soaking the card. I have had the scrapbook paper slide right off easily sometimes because the glue was just a paste.

The word "Soak" is misleading....


PS Doesnt the Ed Brown card have the "Outf" caption making it different from a W575-1?? The Hoyt doesnt have such a design change...

Edited to add.... this info from the 2005 post will answer your Hoyt question.. "On the W575-1, Hoyts name and team is on the side where Hoyts face is at, and the Koesters Hoyts name and team is on the side where his lifted leg is on."

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, at the expense of getting into another W575-1/Koester's debate I'll speak a little about the Brown card.

The Brown card was only ever produced as it was for Koester's (or potentially another company that wanted to do a similar promotion that we just don't have the surviving ads for). Thus EVERY Ed. Brown card will have his designation as Outf. as we was never produced by any other company for distribution, ie you will never find a Brown card with ANY type of advertising on the back. I can't confirm the data you provided about the Hoyt pointing in different directions as his E121 Series of 80 is pretty darn tough as he will only be found with the two "rare" backs in that series--you will not find Hoyt with the common E21 back.

Also, I wanted to point out that true W575-1's are WAY harder to find than I think anybody realizes. They are difficult to find, as usually when you find a blank backed W575-1 it has a Henry Johnson back stamp OR it is from the W575-1B set that we have spoken of before that is probably more correctly designated as W501 type 2 but since there is no G-4-22 on top people have resisted the attempt to designate them that way. I have actually found true W575-1's w/o the Henry Johnson backs to be especially tough to find and may actually be outnumberred in the overall population by the Koester's cards themselves as that was a fairly well distributed promotion.

Keep in mind that most W575-1's have the Henry Johnson stamp and those cards were distributed at the same time as the early print runs of the E121 cards so you will not find any of the late E121 series of 80 additions (which a lot of the rare backed E121's are) so you will not find a Hoyt with that back.

-Rhett