JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[tinkereversandme]

My big issue with this whole debacle is that, has anyone ever seen an item authenticated by the authenticating firm behind this story?

P.A.A.S? I would like to see them tested and see how they fare.

It is embarrasing, but not surprising that JSA would simply fail something because Morales liked it. Morales just has that reputation of turning a $1,000 item into $100, it seems with the prices that the Coach get.

Regards,

Larry

[slidekellyslide]

The story right under the JSA story about John Reznikoff is a good read too...I've seen in auction catalogs his name attached to just about every lock of hair that gets auctioned off...how in the world does someone go about authenticating hair??? Wouldn't you have to do a DNA test and compare with a known relative?

[HRBAKER]

Larry,

If that's the case then they are evaluating a COA from Morales and not a signature. Sure maybe someone has an ax to grind here but this really is the same cautionary tale over and over again. The value in any COA is that there is a perception in a "market" that it has value, to me it has never been anything more than a paid-for best guess. When you look at it like that should it surprise anyone if it's good one time and not the next, personalities aside.

Jeff

[keithsky]

That's the problem anymore. authenticating used to be on all there certs the item was authenticated as genuine now it's just there opinion. Hell anyone can give an opinion on anything and the bad thing is they get paid for a GUESS and then wave all responsibility because it's an opinion. Wish I could go to my job everyday and just give an opinion if I'm doing my job right or wrong. I think I would be fired. As long as people pay for this service they'll continue to stay around.

Keith Janosky

[mcgwirecom]

Obviously he is not doing his due diligence and examining the autograph. I think some authenticators are just spreading themselves too thin with their expertise. I can see someone being an expert on a few autographs but it seems ridiculous to be able to autheticate everything. I wonder what his response was to this. Did the person doing this test inform him at that time?

On a nother note I always felt you could get some PSA graded cards and re-submit them to prove you don't get a Gem Mint 10 grade twice! But who would take the chance of cracking out a 10 and re-submitting it....

[keithsky]

That's what I was saying in my last post, they don't have to take the time to examine anything at any length anymore because it's just an opinion. If they are swamped with orders and spreding them self thin they might just look at something quick and not worry about it since again it's just an opinion and don't have to worry if it's right or wrong since they won't get sued because once again it's just an opinion.

keith Janosky

[David Atkatz]

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

[shimozukawa]

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[shelly]

I saw this story a long time ago on another web site. This is very old news. Look at the dates on the coa's and rejection letters. Why is this dredged up know? Could this have anything to do with a current slander law suit. Just asking.

[perezfan]

It was a set-up, and tantamount to entrapment. The site that exposed this matter clearly has an axe to grind with JSA and PSA. They have a clear agenda and are seeking vengeance.

Granted, JSA should have taken the time to research the auto's and not automatically reject them. But rest assured that the vast number of things done right by JSA/PSA will never appear on this accusatory site.

[Ladder7]

Why this behavior is deemed defendable by anyone here is troubling... Perhaps because you have items authenticated by these schysters and you're concerned yours' may not be legit. Well, most of us have 'em -myself included. Regardless, it's irrelevant.

If theyre innocent, let these millionaires speak up... I expect the silence to be deafening.

Entrapment? someone mentioned. Funny, sexual predators, Johns' and bait-car victims use that very defense.

[David Atkatz]

Gee... How did we ever manage before JSA and PSA? Better throw out all I acquired before the enlightenment.

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

[pscolgrafs]

With all due respect, it essential that the hobby be able to trust SOME OUTFIT out there. If there is no one to trust, there is uncertainty, confusion and collectors will give up. Sure, there are people here that HATE authenticators and proclaim themselves to be experts, but I bet these individuals won't get top dollar for their items since they are rather unknown to a large majority of the collecting population.

After all, didn't David (I believe you are murderer's row on eBay at the time)sell a pencil cut of Chesbro with two authenticating papers to go with it? Why not have it authenticated by PSA or JSA where he could have gotten maybe 5X the amount you got.

And if you sold that 1927 Yankees ball, don't you think you would get some authenticators to agree with your opinion and wouldn't you want to get the most out of it and go to the most popular and marketed firm?

Sure I get frustrated like all of you as I really want to believe these guys are doing a great job, but sometimes they look so damn stupid.

As far as AutographAlert's challenge. That was done so long ago. Old news. I have enclosed to a scan of an Andy Warhol signature that Stephen Koschal has authenticated. Now I don't know the first thing about Andy Warhol, but the cover says March 9, 1987, right? Warhol died on February 22, 1987.

Could it have been signed?

Most likely it was an issue dedicated to the life of a great artist.

[Exhibitman]

Classic...Reminds me of a yellow HOF plaque of Eddie Collins that I saw once offered on Ebay. I emailed to seller to inform him that the card was made several years after Collins' death...

[Lordstan]

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.
I have heard no one here proclaim they are "experts", but I know many, including myself, that are comfortable, which some exceptions, making their own decisions about whether an auto is good or not, regardless of which third party person is involved.
The problem with this specific test is not that JSA made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.
The way I see it is that one of two possibilities exist: 1)JSA rejected these items out of hand because of the Morales cert or 2)they are unable to certify items they previously thought were real for multiple reasons.
In the first scenario one could argue, as David stated before, for theft. They were paid for a service and did not provide it. In the second scenario, one has to question the skill of the authenticator. All the items previously passed and now they all fail for 10-12 reasons. How did they miss all 10 things before?
Considering the price they charge for their services, I guess I expect more.


Also in Karl's example, the shaved t206 would have some residual value, but then again so would the original t206, Type 1 photo, baseball program, or vintage baseball that has a fake autograph on it. The only place this would not apply would be the cut signature, where the paper would have no intrinsic value.

Mark Velarde

[Ringking]

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Ringking

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

If your item has a CLM letter then it IS fake...unless of course you sent him a legit item just so you could try and trick JSA or PSA/DNA...but people don't send legit items to Christopher Morales...they send their legit items to legit authenticators. They send fake items to Morales so they can sell it to uneducated collectors.

[sports-rings]

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

[timzcardz]

I can't say that I'm surprised.