The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[bbeck]

The Pete Rose card I was referring to was actually graded during the Reza Era as the back of the slab had the dark blue labeling on the flip. Absolutely post Mike Baker. What is the incentive for PSA to pull out of circulation low pop high end trimmed pre-war cards (or any big money cards for that matter) as that would result in a lot of expensive buybacks not to mention a large hit with high end collector confidence. Both main stream grading companies get a lot right and they make some mistakes. I find it difficult to believe that they would pull out all their mistakes when they see them.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by bbeck

The Pete Rose card I was referring to was actually graded during the Reza Era as the back of the slab had the dark blue labeling on the flip. Absolutely post Mike Baker. What is the incentive for PSA to pull out of circulation low pop high end trimmed pre-war cards (or any big money cards for that matter) as that would result in a lot of expensive buybacks not to mention a large hit with high end collector confidence. Both main stream grading companies get a lot right and they make some mistakes. I find it difficult to believe that they would pull out all their mistakes when they see them.

Exactly. There would be a zero upside and a horrendous downside incentive-wise for any grading company to proactively buy back doctored cards and acknowledge they messed up - especially in times like this when a company president recently writes an article acknowledging we are in a "market slowdown" but assures his readers we are not in a "market paralysis".

[Davalillo]

BBeck,

I have had cards bought back for full market value that I submitted that were deemed altered after they were resubmitted.

JIm

[bbeck]

Jim-I am curious, who sets the market value? If you own a PSA 8 or PSA 9 T206 (common) that is a 1/1 and another 1/1 sells for $10,000 in a major auction, is that considered the market value if yours is deemed trimmed on a bump atttempt, or an aberration? When my 1966 Rose came back trimmed the first thought that crossed my mind was how many trimmed cards reside in my own collection and I have many sets on the registry. I am a pro PSA guy although I own SGC cards also. I was point blank told by a PSA rep after the Rose episode, "when you crack out a card it is a big risk". The risk should be pertaining to the grade, not card doctoring. The holder is supposed to remove the doctoring risk, we are paying for peace of mind. I have to believe that cards in your collection as well as mine have been tampered with. I keep tab on many ebay sellers who I stay away from because I have a gut feeling regarding their cards. The pre-war cards I really cherish are the ones I purchased during my infancy of collecting back in the mid to late 70's when I was a kid. They are clean and untampered, some I have graded and some I do not have the heart to entomb. I am a realist regarding my collection, I have to have trimmed cards that reside in holders. I am still pro PSA but I would be fooling myself to believe otherwise, even if every card I own was submitted for a bump review. -Bob Beck

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Jim-I am curious, who sets the market value? If you own a PSA 8 or PSA 9 T206 (common) that is a 1/1 and another 1/1 sells for $10,000 in a major auction, is that considered the market value if yours is deemed trimmed on a bump atttempt, or an aberration? When my 1966 Rose came back trimmed the first thought that crossed my mind was how many trimmed cards reside in my own collection and I have many sets on the registry. I am a pro PSA guy although I own SGC cards also. I was point blank told by a PSA rep after the Rose episode, "when you crack out a card it is a big risk". The risk should be pertaining to the grade, not card doctoring. The holder is supposed to remove the doctoring risk, we are paying for peace of mind. I have to believe that cards in your collection as well as mine have been tampered with. I keep tab on many ebay sellers who I stay away from because I have a gut feeling regarding their cards. The pre-war cards I really cherish are the ones I purchased during my infancy of collecting back in the mid to late 70's when I was a kid. They are clean and untampered, some I have graded and some I do not have the heart to entomb. I am a realist regarding my collection, I have to have trimmed cards that reside in holders. I am still pro PSA but I would be fooling myself to believe otherwise, even if every card I own was submitted for a bump review. -Bob Beck

This is a great post !!

Sincerely, Clayton

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Exactly. There would be a zero upside and a horrendous downside incentive-wise for any grading company to proactively buy back doctored cards and acknowledge they messed up - especially in times like this when a company president recently writes an article acknowledging we are in a "market slowdown" but assures his readers we are not in a "market paralysis".

It's hard to imagine PSA could afford to buy back all doctored cards in its holders. That combined with their lack of incentive to do so even it was affordable leads me to believe that most of those cards will remain in PSA holders, but in time will require a cross-over certification to retain their value. Yes, I understand that there are a number of registry owners who care only what's on the slab (as opposed to what's in the slab). And for a time they will continue to largely prop up the high-grade slabbed market. But what about the next generation of collectors, collectors who at present have little invested in such slabbed cards and who have little economic incentive to keep their heads in the sand about the risk that a substantial number of these cards are doctored.

There have been a number of threads on this board over the years about the numbers of slabbed high-grade prewar cards that are doctored. My opinion, at least for certain issues (e.g., T206s) is that a substantial percentage, quite possibly the majority, of 8s and higher have been doctored in some way. My collecting days go back to the 1960s and never in those times do a recall such a quantity of nrmt/mt and mt cards, and such a dearth of oversized cards. If I am anything close to correct about this, then I simply don't see how that day of reckoning can be put off forever. Think about it. All it would take is for one collector with a significant number of such high grade slabbed prewar cards to be willing (or feel the need) to have them examined by an IMPARTIAL third party authenticator. And if that was done and a significant number come back doctored, in effect the market value for slabbed cards of those issues that either lack provenance or "impartial third party" re certification will be decimated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In many aspects of life wishful thinking often trumps reason. So too with some collectors.

[Davalillo]

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

I am sure that eventually folks will remember to put their names by their posts or just put it in your signature and never worry about it. Jim- would you like me to do that for you, since I know your techy skills aren't that of an IT guy? You are welcome to say almost anything you want to, your name just needs to be by it...lmk and I will put it there for you....or you would need to edit out your comments. Corey has his name out there as I do....and many others..nothing personal......regards

[Davalillo]

Sorry did not know-you can use my name..

[shimozukawa]

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[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

Maybe so. But at least it can be said I'm making them with no economic stake in whether I am right or wrong. The only high grade PSA's I own are N28's and they have an impeccable provenance. By your own admission you have 20,000 high-grade slabbed PSA cards. In addition, I have the perspective of knowing first hand what existed many years ago before there was an economic incentive to doctor. I believe there is a sound basis to believe a significant percentage of high-grade PSA's of certain issues are doctored. And if in fact that is the case, I believe the wishful thinking is believing that some day the s@@@ will not hit the fan.

As to the insightful comments by shimozukawa, I can forsee a day when there will come into being a company whose sole purpose will be to re-certify grades by PSA and SGC. Market forces will compel the creation of such a company because its certifcation will be the best way for a slabbed card to retain its value, especially a card that did not receive the half-grade bump up (signaling that PSA was not willing to reconfirm that the card was not doctored). After all, if you're considering buying one of two PSA 8's of the same card, wouldn't you be willing be to pay more for the card (all other things being equal in regard to centering, registration, etc.) that comes with additional credible certification that the card has not been doctored. Not being a grading company in the sense of providing any other service other than opining whether PSA or SGC got it right in regard to doctoring, such a company will have considerably less economic incentive than PSA or SGC to be anything but impartial. And that is the key -- getting an opinion from someone who derives no economic benefit from what he is opining. That stands in contrast to the grading companies. PSA will have an economic incentive to confirm a card in its holder has not been doctored because that way they will not have to buy back the card. Likewise, one can credibly argue that SGC will have an economic incentive when reviewing PSA slabbed cards to want to find doctoring.

[Davalillo]

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

[shimozukawa]

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