Appease me, please....one more time T206/T213/T215?

[cdn_collector]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

As I have stated before the Southern League subjects were carried over from the 150 series into the very first print run of the 350 series. When that was completed the Southern League players were pulled from production never to be printed again in the T206 set. After that there was another print run of 150-350 subjects with "350 Series" ad backs. Then these subjects were discontinued and the 350 Only players were introduced.

At no time during the T206 printing process were Southern Association players on the same stone coming off the same press being printed on the same sheet as 350 Only Subjects. In the Coupon set they were on the same stone being printed on the same sheet.

Many on this board have probably forgotten more about this hobby than I have ever known, so please pardon me if I'm out of line, but how can you possibly know this?

I find your argument both compelling and intriguing -- I just don't understand how this is the first time I've read this stated with such certainty. I assume 'stone' refers to the actual printing plates/blocks used to produce the card fronts, but I didn't think anyone knew about their configuration.

Respecting that you've said it would take too much to explain, can you post the abstract version of the explanation, please? I am really really curious to hear more details.

Regards,

Richard.

NB. I'm supposed to be narrowing the focus of my collection. It is these kind of threads that prevent me from being able to completely disassociate with the monster. Leon, as the fellow that started this thread, I am holding you responsible for the most recent person to 'encourage' my addiction

[steve B]

Stone would be the actual lithographic stone which served as a printing plate.
They were a special grade of limestone, specially prepared for use in printing. The portion of one I've seen (NOT T206 or any other card) was tan and about 2 inches thick with a very smooth surface. The design to be printed was acid etched into them. When the print run was done they would typically be ground or etched flat and reused.

Modern plates have a limestone like surface on an aluminum plate. And a stick of limestone is still used as a chalk to repair scratches etc.

Figuring out the exact layout can be challenging, as you need to know the size first, then have access to lots of the product. And even then as you can see differences of opinion will arise. Caused by questions like how much margin was left for trimming, how many sheets of how many subjects, stuff like that. I haven't seen anywhere near enough cards - especially in original collections. But the main experts in the debate have, and spending enough time with their data will help some.


Steve B

Steve B

[tedzan]

From the printer's viewpoint at American Litho (ALC), in the Summer of 1910, all 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) were no longer "150/350 subjects".
They were simply in the production timeline of the 350 series subjects, since ALC had then switched to printing PIEDMONT 350 backs on all 48
SL cards.
And, there is a very good likelihood that these printers had no concept of "150/350 series" or "350-only series", etc., etc. These are terms that
hobbyist have devised in the past 60-70 years in order to better understand The Monster.

During 1910, an ALC printer would take a 48-card sheet (pre-printed with front images of the 48 SL players) and placed it (blank-back up) on
his press ready to print the PIEDMONT 350 backs on to this sheet....per requests from Factory #25 in Richmond, Virginia.

Try to understand that 100 years ago these stockpiles of pre-printed sheets did NOT have any "series" identification as we refer to them now.
They were produced and available to meet the demand of the various Tobacco Factory's.



.......... Ted Breitenstein ................................... 1909 ............................... 1909 ....................... 1910





....... Shaughnessy .................. 1909 ......................... 1909 ........................ 1910



My research and discussions with many T206 experts over the past 31 years has formed my opinion that the COUPON-1 cards are part of the
T206 set. Furthermore, the Burdick info that Leon posted reinforces this opinion, as it reveals to us that Burdick was misinformed on the timeline
of the COUPON-1 cards. And, made a "mistake of convience" by lumping this set in with the 1914-1919 issues (T213-2 & T213-3).

This is my 3rd response to your question; nonetheless, you keep repeating it. That tells me that my response to you is being ignored, otherwise
you would engage in further discussion. Therefore, I'm wasting my time....and, at this point, continuing this, is futile. It ends here....as I will be
away for a couple of days.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - I find it disappointing that you feel the need to be so patronizing and think the things that I have to share regarding the T206 set are a waist of your time. I will however continue to try and "reinvent the wheel" if that means sharing research based on facts and not wild speculation.

Richard - As for your question "but how can you possibly know this?" I'm enjoying a great day with my kids and a response to your questions will take a little time to put together but I will get to it later today.

[cdn_collector]

Thanks for such a prompt response, Steve.

And Tim, I look forward to yours. I'll continue to wait patiently, as I appreciate that you've got your priorities in order. Enjoy the rest of the day with your kids!

Regards,

Richard.

[Abravefan11]

Richard – Again thanks for your question and I will answer it as best I can. Feel free to ask me to clarify anything.

Your question was “How do I know that the 150-350 Southern Association subjects were not printed simultaneously as the 350 Only subjects in the T206 set?”

I will start broad and work my way to the more detailed parts of the explanation.

The T206 set was printed in three different series 150, 350, and 460. However the subjects groups were not just printed in each of these series. Some carried over from one series to the next. Years of collectors and researches compiling data on the possible front/back combinations of each image has made it possible for us to group the subjects. Traditionally we use the terms:

150 Only
150-350
350 Only
350-460
460 Only

These groups have clear delineative patterns that have lead to this terminology. It’s these patterns that show us the groups where printed for a period of time and then discontinued to make room for the next group of subjects. If this was not the case then we would have random subjects showing up aross the different series or even the entire printing of the set. Once a group was removed and the next group began being printed the discontinued images were not printed again. For example we don’t see any 150-350 series images brought back for a print run during the 350 Only, 350-460, or 460 Only groups.

Now that we have established that the groups were printed separately let’s explain the common backs like Piedmont 350 in which you can find multiple groups. Many collectors have the misconception that when the Piedmont 350, one of the other common backs, or an Assorted back were printed in the “350 Series” that all of the images were printed in one big group. Keep in mind that this was an ongoing project that lasted for 3 years and the flag ship back brands were printed over and over again. When the 150-350 series transitioned into the “350 Series” ad back printing they were printed with Piedmont 350 backs. When the next print run began of 350 Only subjects they were printed with Piedmont 350 ad backs. When the 350-460 subjects were introduced they were printed with Piedmont 350 ad backs. This results in a large group of Piedmont 350 subjects but they were not all printed at the same time but rather in small groups over a long period of time.

A great example of how subjects from different groups could receive the same ad back but were printed during different print runs, are the Sovereign 350 back group. When the 350 Only subjects were discontinued and the 350-460 group began printing ALC changed the color ink. It was a subtle difference but draws a very clear line between the two print runs. You will not find a 350 Only subject with an apple green Sovereign back and you will not find a 350-460 subject with a forest green Sovereign back. Two distinct print runs that if it weren't for the color change in ink could be thought to have been printed at the same time.

The assorted back brands were printed in the same manner. During a print run of 150-350 some of the cards would receive an assorted back ad. During the 350 Only run a group would receive the same back ad. At the end of the entire T206 run there would be a large number of subjects printed with a particular ad back but they were printed during their respective groups print run.

Now let’s talk about the 48 southern league subjects and specifically the 20 Southern Association players. Originally all 48 of the southern league players were intended to be printed in the 150 series Brown Hindu group. That number was reduced to 34 and the other 12 were not printed for the first time until the “350 Series” began.

For more on that you can read this thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125317

When the “350 Series” began printing the first print run was comprised of subjects from the 150-350 group and the additional 12 southern league subjects. Take a look at the back of Leon’s card.



This looks like a mess to a lot of people but to me it’s a beautiful snapshot of the time the 150 Series was transitioning to the 350 Series. The first subjects printed in the 350 Series were printed with Piedmont 350, Old Mill, and EPDG backs. You will see all three back ads printed on Leon’s card. Two groups of cards show this to be true.

The Southern League players were printed with the Piedmont 350 and Old Mill backs. Once this run was complete they were not printed again. The next group included the 9 350 short run players. Linadaman, Dahlen (Boston), Karger, Mullin (horizontal), etc. These players were included in this initial run and printed with Piedmont 350 and EPDG backs. You will not find any of these subjects with other ad backs that 150-350 subjects can be found with such as Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25 or 30.

All of the above is why I believe that the Southern Association players were never printed on the same sheet as the 350 Only subjects during the T206 set.

Am I right? You can decide for yourself. I highly recommend anyone that cares to look this deeply into the composition of this set and other relating sets to do their own research. There is a lot of bad information out there coming from well respected sources. Do I know everything about the set? Absolutely not and I am going to make mistakes or be proven wrong about something I post. When that happens there will be at least one and probably few that will relish in their Aha!! moment. That's fine with me as I just really care about knowing what's right more than being right. That means that if you have any insight into this set you can contact me via the board, email, or PM and I will gladly listen whether you're a 20 year veteran of the hobby or just starting out. Nobody can figure this out on their own.

All the best.

[cdn_collector]

Holy crap Tim, you weren't kidding. I use a wide screen monitor on my desktop and you still managed to fill two full screens!

And thanks for humouring me. I've read this twice now and need to let it marinate for a bit to see that I truly understand.

Thanks again!

Regards,

Richard.