Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

bbcarddan · #1 01-19-2011, 11:04 PM

How about Gil Hodges can`t get much closer to the hall and still be on the outside lookin in than him.

My opinion ALL those ballplayers who lost playing time to serve our country during wartime are HOFers!

Peter_Spaeth · #2 01-20-2011, 06:05 AM

The other interesting part of the Travis story is that he not only missed several years because of WW II but he really was never the same afterwards because he suffered frostbite and had part of his foot amputated. So he was out of baseball by age 33. Still, in my book, Addie Joss to the contrary nothwithstanding, you don't make the Hall of Fame based on what might have been. And the voters agree -- I don't think he has ever garnered any significant votes. But maybe the Hall should open a what might have been wing.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ravice01.shtml

To answer your question Kenny, he might have been injured, his stats might have taken a nosedive for whatever reason (I bet we could come up with a number of examples of guys whose careers nosedived, off the top of my head Doc Gooden comes to mind who surely projected to a first round HOFer after 7 years; Jose Canseco might fit that bill; etc.). We just don't know. I wouldn't want to base HOF membership on projected performance.

Kenny Cole · #3 01-20-2011, 08:23 AM

Peter,

Unlike Travis, Doc Gooden's problems were largely self-inflicted so he doesn't really fit the bill. Conseco, were it not for the steroid issue (again self-inflicted) has a halfway decent case for the hall.

Surely you can come up with better examples than that when explaining why someone who showed absolutely no signs of slowing down -- someone who led the league in hits and hit .359 (second in the league) the year before he entered the service -- someone who had finished in the top ten in average 4 out of the 5 years immediately preceding his induction into the service -- would nonetheless, for some inexplicable reason that you cannot articulate,
have fallen flat on his face during the prime years of his career had he not gone off to fight for his country.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I suggest that my hypothesis -- which is that he would have continued to play at a consistently high level during the four years that he missed -- is more supportable than your theory that something "might" have happened to cause that not to occurr.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-20-2011, 09:06 AM

You are misstating the issue. Of course it's more likely that he would have continued. But as long as there is a doubt, I can't give him the benefit of that doubt. And there is a doubt, because it does happen that players go south. I will try to think of more examples. Perhaps you can explain why he never received a vote?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 01-20-2011, 09:10 AM

Eric Davis. Darryl Strawberry.

D. Bergin · #6 01-20-2011, 09:30 AM

Gary Templeton, Ralph Garr, Carlos Baerga

I'm sure the list could go on and on.

Kenny Cole · #7 01-20-2011, 09:43 AM

Unlike Travis, Eric Davis' career was derailed by consistent injuries -- a function of the game he was playing. I've already said that I don't give credit for that. Darryl Strawberry's career was derailed by Darryl Strawberry. He doesn't get credit for screwing himself.

However, the Cecil Travis situation is pretty much unique. The only other ballplayer I can think of whose situation is even arguably similar is Dom DiMaggio, and he too has supporters who think he should be elected to the HOF.

If you use some of Bill James' statistical projection techniques, Travis projects out to about 2800 hits and a .320+ average if he doesn't go off to war and get frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge. Those are pretty special numbers for anyone, let alone a guy who spent a lot of time at SS. He didn't post those numbers, but to me, the biggest question is why?

Cecil Travis' situation is a function of things beyond his control. If Cecil Travis dies in a car wreck in 1942, we can talk about what might have been but the context is different. He didn't die, he didn't get hurt playing baseball, he didn't hurt himself with unhealthy personal habits, and his skills as a baseball player didn't suddenly decline. His best years were effectively stolen from him by a war and the effects of a war.

To me, that is an entirely different scenario than loss of a skill set due to injury, apathy or self-abuse. However, you, and evidently the BBWAA, take the position that it doesn't matter why his numbers aren't what they should have been. I simply disagree with that analysis.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 01-20-2011, 09:49 AM

It doesn't matter to me why he didn't post the numbers, correct. The fact is, he didn't post them, and it is unreasonable to give him credit for numbers he didn't post. Baseball is too uncertain a game; too many variables.

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