Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

novakjr · #1 01-18-2011, 07:49 PM

I wouldn't necessarily call them Hall-Worthy, but Fred Merkle and Wally Pipp were pretty damn good. It's a shame that both of them are primarily remembered for one hitch in their careers. Merkle's boner and Pipp's headache.

Merkle had a pretty respectable 16 year career.
Pipp had a VERY respectable 15 year career. He even led the league in homers twice and triples once.

Mark · #2 01-18-2011, 07:52 PM

There's always George Sisler.

novakjr · #3 01-18-2011, 07:59 PM

George H. Burns had a pretty good 16 year career. .307 career BA, 1926 A.L. MVP, 2x WS Champion, led the league in hits twice, doubles once, and HBP three times.

Doug · #4 01-18-2011, 08:02 PM

I have a Cincinnati bias, but I think Tony Mullane should be in the HOF if Rube Marquard is...

CMIZ5290 · #5 01-18-2011, 08:05 PM

What about ed reulbach? 2 shutouts in one day? No other major leaguer to my knowldedge ever did that. Also had great lifetime stats.

CMIZ5290 · #6 01-18-2011, 08:19 PM

Do i dare mention hal chase?

bcbgcbrcb · #7 01-18-2011, 09:02 PM

Deacon White

Writehooks · #8 01-18-2011, 09:17 PM

Shocker had 20 or more wins for the Browns four seasons in a row in the early '20s and was a cornerstone of the Yankees staff in two stints in New York.
Thanks to the "grandfather" rule, he was also the last Yankee to legally throw a spitball after the pitch was banned in 1920. Should be in the HOF.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-18-2011, 09:18 PM

I think Dave Parker is pretty comparable to the Rices Cepedas and Dawsons of the world.

E93 · #10 01-18-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

What about ed reulbach? 2 shutouts in one day? No other major leaguer to my knowldedge ever did that. Also had great lifetime stats.

My memory could be failing me, but I believe Tim Keefe once through back to back no-hitters in a double header. Please correct me if I am wrong.
JimB

Edited to correct myself: A quick google search found that he threw a one-hitter, then two-hitter in two games of a double header. Still not too shabby.

bbcard1 · #11 01-19-2011, 11:02 AM

Off the top of my head, underappreciated hall of famers would be Ott and Klein. One I have always thought was HOF worth, espcially compared to his contemporaries, was Laughing Larry Doyle. Good player, good leader.

packs · #12 01-19-2011, 01:01 PM

Peter, I think you're missing the point on the argument for Doyle. If you compare his numbers to those of players today, then sure they look weaker in comparison. But as I said in my post, when the man retired, he led all National League second basemen in most offensive catagories and was only a few games behind Evers for games played at the position. He was without a doubt the best offensive National League second baseman of his generation, potentially of all time at the time of his retirement, and that should earn him a spot in the HOF. He was Roberto Alomar in the dead ball era.

tedzan · #13 01-19-2011, 01:39 PM

During 1958 the "useful idiots" in Congress held Anti-Trust hearings on Baseball. These Senators made the mistake of calling Casey Stengel to
testify. For hours at end, Casey held court, and held them spell-bound.

After which Senator Kefauver called Mickey Mantle to testify. Mantle's only response to Kefauver...."My views are about the same as Casey's".

Well, whatever Frank Wakefield said in post #33....then, "my views are about the same as Frank W's".

Bill Dahlen, "Turkey" Donlin, "Cactus Gavy" Cravath, Lefty O'Doul, Ed Reulbach, and Cecil Travis should all be in the HOF. And, there is still some
hope for any these guys....as it was quite recent (1995) that Vic Willis was inducted into the HOF.

Some of the inexplicable HOF selections (or lack of) in the past 50 years is best exemplified by the Veteran's Committee election of Johnny Mize
in 1981. Mize was elligible for the HOF since 1959....so, why was Mize passed over by the HOF Committee for all those years ?
Even Bill James, with his "sabr-metrics", gives Mize a high rating. Better yet, Lawrence Ritter includes Mize in his book "The 100 Greatest Baseball
Players of All Time."

So guys, check-out Johnny's numbers....then, explain to me why Johhny Mize was not elected to the HOF thru the "front door", before 1981 ? ?

TED Z

Bridwell · #14 01-19-2011, 04:35 PM

As far as pre-war, I'd mention Ed Ruelbach, Deacon Phillippe, George Mullen, Jake Daubert, Joe Wood, John Kling, Tommie Leach, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee. All great ones, but I think we have enough HOFers from that era, though.

CMIZ5290 · #15 01-19-2011, 06:26 PM

Ha! Wondering when someone was going to mention big cat john mize, him and my father were cousins, and he was a monster.

Wite3 · #16 01-19-2011, 06:49 PM

I will say it if Adam W. doesn't....Lefty O'Doul!

Robextend · #17 01-18-2011, 07:56 PM

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

CMIZ5290 · #18 01-18-2011, 07:58 PM

Rob- totally agree with mike donlin. He was a superstar and many experts thought, one of the best ever.

wolfdogg · #19 01-19-2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

I agree with you on the Ryan......why is he not in?

wolfdogg · #20 01-19-2011, 08:27 PM

I still have to mention William "Dummy" Hoy for what he did for MLB and his stats aren't too awful either

quinnsryche · #21 01-19-2011, 08:56 PM

Pre War: Stuffy McInnis & "Indian" Bob Johnson
Post War: Steve Garvey & Dave "Cobra" Parker
All 4 should be HOF'ers.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 01-19-2011, 09:01 PM

Johnson for some reason did not start his career until 27, which really hurt his lifetime stats.

Kenny Cole · #23 01-19-2011, 09:29 PM

Come on,

Cecil Travis lost most of 4 of his prime years serving our country in WWII. IMO, he gets credit for that. He also suffered frostbite during the battle of the bulge, which pretty well wiped him out post-war.

He was a hell of a shortstop. I don't think that is arguable. It seems to me that he shouldn't be debited too hard for losing 700+ hits and all of the other stats that the HOF deems important due to his service in WWII. IMO, losing the statistics that at least arguably would result in a HOF selection because you are serving our country is materially different from, for example, losing the statistics because you got hurt and couldn't finish your career. Getting hurt is part of the risk you assume when you play the game. Having to go fight on behalf of our country for 4 years isn't really a risk you assume when you sign up to play baseball, again IMO.

I'm not really sure how to compensate for that, but I don't think that the loss of 4 prime seasons due to military service is meaningless when you are looking at a statistical reason to elect, or not elect, a given candidate. Statistically, Cecil Travis got screwed by circumstances that were not personally related or baseball related. He was not a better or worse baseball player because of anything he did, or anything that was a result of the profession in which he engaged. He just lost 4 years.

In his case, I would submit that the statistics are far less important than they are in most when it comes to the HOF discussion. IMO, the question in my mind is, had he played those 4 seasons, would he be HOF worthy? Given that his candidacy is being discussed without them, I have to conclude that he would have been.

Kenny

FrankWakefield · #24 01-19-2011, 09:44 PM

I've wondered if the delay on Mize had to do with him playing with the Yankees and Cardinals. Lots of Yankees got into the Hall. Lots of Cardinals and Giants, too; many on merit, maybe a few from politics by Frisch and others. And politics may well have helped a Yankee or two. If that was the perception then a backlash to that might have happened. Slaughter would have been in the same boat. I recall the story about him sitting on the bench in the clubhouse, crying at the news that he'd been traded to NY. Was Mize abrasive with the media? Was that a two way street??

Peter_Spaeth · #25 01-19-2011, 10:06 PM

In my opinion we can't put someone into the HOF based on speculation about what he might have done, even if there was a noble reason for missing those years. It starts down a slippery slope that will end up with Brien Taylor being enshrined.

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