Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[Robextend]

Ozzie Smith still had almost 2,500 hits and over 1,250 runs scored and 580 stolen bases. I mean even if you argue longevity, you have to hit a little bit to get in the HOF these days.

Mazeroski also had 2,000 hits and 138 HRs

Marion only had 1,448 hits and 36 HRs with a 323 OBP. He might have been a very good player and instrumental to his teams success, but not a HOFer at all by any standards.

[tbob]

Pete Reiser and Tony Oliva are the two "what could have been" players who would easily have been in the HOF except for injuries. Both great players, both acclaimed by their contemporaries as stars, yet both star-crossed.

[tbob]

If old Casey hadn't blown a gasket in 1960 and had started Whitey Ford in Game 1, we wouldn't even be takling about Maz' Game 7. As great a manager as the Old Perfessor was, this was the strangest and stupidest move he ever made. Ford goes in Game 7 and the Yanks are world champs and Maz is recognized as a very good defensive player but never gets a sniff of the HOF. This was why Stengel was fired and Ralph Houk hired as manager of the Yankees in 1961.

[RGold]

Who's that pipsqueak next to Marty Marion?

From my Cardinal wire photo collection.

[tedzan]

Hey guys......Miller Huggins has only 1474 hits and a BA comparable to Marty Marion's BA.

Also, there are other HOFer's that have less than 2000 hits.....Huggins instantly came to mind.
Of course Huggins is in for other reasons.

So, I repeat Tina Turner's......" What does hits have to do with it ? "

Recall, the HOF said that Maz and Oz were inducted due to their defensive play (not their HITS).
I was there at the ceremonies and well remember this statement.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

was elected as a manager, not a player.

From baseball reference.com
Inducted into the Hall of Fame by Veteran's Committee as Manager in 1964.

[tedzan]

Doooaaah ! ....No kidding ! 1

However, Peter how come you are ignoring the argument.....Maz and Oz are in due to their DEFENSE ?

Marion was as good an infielder as they were.

Look, I cannot argue with someone who thinks George Sisler is "overrated". That tells me we live in two different worlds.
And, do not cite Bill James again. He has been known to have had lapses in judgment. At times, James gets too carried
away trying to analyze BB strictly from a mathematical standpoint.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Bill James has said and written on more than one occasion that -- I'm paraphrasing here -- one of the worst cases that can be made for a player being inducted into the Hall of Fame is the "If Player A is in, then Player B should be in" argument.

Common sense should tell you that if this method of reasoning were valid, then eventually every player would be inducted into the Hall of Fame, because there would be no end. Heck, even managers of company softball teams would end up giving speeches in Cooperstown. Of course, because fans are so passionate about players they saw play or spoke to at an autograph signing, common sense often goes out the window when it comes to Hall of Fame debates.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted: sure defense is the primary reason why they are in, but I think to make it principally on defense you at least have to meet a certain threshold of offensive production, and with 1400 hits Marty Marion just isn't there. With nearly 2500, plus the steals, Ozzie is. Personally I would not have elected Mazeroski. To illustrate my point if the undisputed greatest shortstop of all time hit .188, he wouldn't make it. Ted your perceptions of some of the 40s players like Terry Moore, Tommy Henrich, and others who (if memory serves) you have pronounced Hall-worthy just do not seem objective to me but seem tinged with nostalgia.

Edit I agree Bill James is not perfect.... For example I think he is insane to rate Arky Vaughan in the top 40 players of all time.

[tedzan]

Peter

I fully agree with you that Mazeroski should not be in. And, I don't think anyone would deny Ozzie HOF status.
My understanding is that a Pittsburgh Pirate guy (who had a lot of pull) was on the Veterans Committee that
elected Maz.

Perhaps you're right that my subjective feelings enter into my preferences on guys like Tommy Henrich, Marty
Marion, Terry Moore, Gil Hodges, etc. I grew up seeing these guys (on TV or in a ballpark) play the game; and,
I was at the very impressionable age of a 10 year old to a teenager then. And, when you reach my age, your
mind starts to regress back to 1947 - 1960. And, believe me those memory's are as clear as if they were just
yesterday.

Regards,

TED Z