Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[CMIZ5290]

How about rabbit maranville? Life time batting average of .256!

[D. Bergin]

Regarding the Ozzie vs. Maz debate.

We are still comparing a SS to a 2nd Baseman.

As far as fielding and getting to balls/range. Ozzie played on artificial turf for a large portion of his career. Maz played on grass.

[tedzan]

To quote Tina Turner...." What does hits (love) have to do with it ? "

We were told that Maz & Oz were elected to the HOF because of their great "defensive play".

Marty Marion's defensive stats and performance were equivalent to Maz and Oz. And, Marion
contributed enormously to the success of the St Louis Cardinals during their great years from
1942 to 1949.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

I saw Mark Belanger make some great defensive plays (on TV and in person), and he was a key defensive cog at shortstop on a string of really good Orioles team. Plus, he was a good baseball man. Better save a place for him.

[Robextend]

Ozzie Smith still had almost 2,500 hits and over 1,250 runs scored and 580 stolen bases. I mean even if you argue longevity, you have to hit a little bit to get in the HOF these days.

Mazeroski also had 2,000 hits and 138 HRs

Marion only had 1,448 hits and 36 HRs with a 323 OBP. He might have been a very good player and instrumental to his teams success, but not a HOFer at all by any standards.

[tbob]

Pete Reiser and Tony Oliva are the two "what could have been" players who would easily have been in the HOF except for injuries. Both great players, both acclaimed by their contemporaries as stars, yet both star-crossed.

[tbob]

If old Casey hadn't blown a gasket in 1960 and had started Whitey Ford in Game 1, we wouldn't even be takling about Maz' Game 7. As great a manager as the Old Perfessor was, this was the strangest and stupidest move he ever made. Ford goes in Game 7 and the Yanks are world champs and Maz is recognized as a very good defensive player but never gets a sniff of the HOF. This was why Stengel was fired and Ralph Houk hired as manager of the Yankees in 1961.

[RGold]

Who's that pipsqueak next to Marty Marion?

From my Cardinal wire photo collection.

[tedzan]

Hey guys......Miller Huggins has only 1474 hits and a BA comparable to Marty Marion's BA.

Also, there are other HOFer's that have less than 2000 hits.....Huggins instantly came to mind.
Of course Huggins is in for other reasons.

So, I repeat Tina Turner's......" What does hits have to do with it ? "

Recall, the HOF said that Maz and Oz were inducted due to their defensive play (not their HITS).
I was there at the ceremonies and well remember this statement.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

was elected as a manager, not a player.

From baseball reference.com
Inducted into the Hall of Fame by Veteran's Committee as Manager in 1964.

[tedzan]

Doooaaah ! ....No kidding ! 1

However, Peter how come you are ignoring the argument.....Maz and Oz are in due to their DEFENSE ?

Marion was as good an infielder as they were.

Look, I cannot argue with someone who thinks George Sisler is "overrated". That tells me we live in two different worlds.
And, do not cite Bill James again. He has been known to have had lapses in judgment. At times, James gets too carried
away trying to analyze BB strictly from a mathematical standpoint.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Bill James has said and written on more than one occasion that -- I'm paraphrasing here -- one of the worst cases that can be made for a player being inducted into the Hall of Fame is the "If Player A is in, then Player B should be in" argument.

Common sense should tell you that if this method of reasoning were valid, then eventually every player would be inducted into the Hall of Fame, because there would be no end. Heck, even managers of company softball teams would end up giving speeches in Cooperstown. Of course, because fans are so passionate about players they saw play or spoke to at an autograph signing, common sense often goes out the window when it comes to Hall of Fame debates.