Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[nolemmings]

I'll admit to having only seen Mazerozki play a time or three. Still, you'd think the writers of the time, the guys that vote for the HOF, saw him regularly. His first five years on the ballot he did not even garner 10%. His first year on the ballot, when presumably memories were fresh, he finished 23rd, behind Roy Face, Don Larsen, Lew Burdette, Al Dark and Ted Klu. He only finished with half the necessary votes once. While the baseball writers were far from perfect, it's hard to believe that they'd be that far off on a guy for enshrinement.

[Kenny Cole]

Todd,

I'm not necessarily advocating Maz for the HOF. I don't know whether he belongs or not. I suppose the answer to that question depends in large part upon how you view the value of defense in baseball. In that regard, it seems rather clear to me that, at least historically, the HOF voters didn't put much of a premium on defense. They were much more moved by the big hitters. Kiner was a terrible defensive outfielder and my 9 year old probably has a better arm than Kiner ever did. Kiner was, to be kind, a defensive liabilty. He also had a short career. However, he got in because of the monster numbers he put up during tha short career. I don't have a big problem with that.

However, Kiner is proof that gaudy offensive numbers are what get a position player into the Hall. Great defense has never been the stepping stone to immortality. IMO, that's a large part of the reason why Maz got no love from the BBWAA. The things he was really good at weren't the things they cared about. That's the whole point about the Ozzie/Maz comparison. For some reason, its different for Ozzie. Why is that?

If you look at Ozzie's offensive numbers, he hit .262, had an OBP of .337, averaged 2 HR a year, and drove in 50 rbis a year. He stole a lot of bases in an era when lots of people stole a lot of bases. Although he scored a fair number of runs, he is comfortably outside of the top 100 in that category. Maz' had more pop, drove in more runs per year, scored a lot fewer runs, had a .299 OBP, and didn't steal bases in an era when no one besides Maury Wills stole bases. I don't think either one of them has a reasonable case for the Hall if you look only at their offensive performances.

The thing that put Ozzie over the top was, obviously, his defense. It was sterling, remarkable, awesome, whatever adjective you want to use. The Cardinals were on TV alot so his wonderful defense was often on display and often seen by a lot of people. That wasn't ever true for Maz. In fact, I sort of wonder if Ozzie would have been a first ballot HOFer had he stayed a Padre and lost all that face time on TV.

Defense got Ozzie in. However, at least if you believe what the numbers say, Maz was in Ozzie's class as a defender. No one ever seems to consider that when they talk about how bad a choice for the Hall Maz is. Why is Ozzie a first ballot HOFer based on his defense while Maz, who was equally adept, should have to pay to get in? Since it was great defense that got both of them in, I frankly don't understand why they are treated so disparately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James rates Mazeroski as the 29th best 2nd baseman of all time. He rates Ozzie as the 7th best shortstop.

[oldjudge]

I never thought Ozzie Smith was a Hall of Famer, let alone a first ballot HOFer. However, since he is, Omar Vizquel should also be a first ballot HOFer. He is Ozzie's equal in the field and a better hitter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Vizquel is going to end up pretty close to 3000 hits, although at age 43 I don't think he has enough gas in the tank to get 200 more. In the late 90s when the Indians had such great lineups, it seemed Vizquel was always the toughest out for the Red Sox.

[Touch'EmAll]

How about the guys who honestly had a few fabulous years that are not in the HOF ? They are surely the equal of many names you folks are throwing out.

Just hard to believe the HOF voters put TOO MUCH stock on longevity. I always thought, "if a player was great, the player was great."

For starters:
Pete Reiser (Reesor)
Roger Maris
Bo Jackson

These players would blow away many actual HOF inductees. They captures the hearts of our nation when they played. They could do things not many others could do. And they held big time records (Maris).

Hands down the finest defensive outfield throw of any man ever to play baseball - All Star game - Bo Jackson throws out Harold Reynolds at the plate - from the warning track - on the fly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely incredible defensive arm. Yet they let Ozzie Smith in for his defensive merits.

Pete Reiser made the all-star game in 1941, 1942 & 1946 - throw in the war years - he would have been an All-Star for 6 consecutive years. Way better than a lot of the names I have heard here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Marty Marion had 1448 lifetime hits. I don't think so.

[tedzan]

Given that Maz and the "Wizard of Oz" are in the HOF due to their defensive performances, then why isn't Marty Marion in the HOF ?

A great defensive SS with great range, Marty was an important "cog" in those great St Louis Cardinals teams from 1940 thru 1950.

Marion, Maz, and Oz all Batted about .262....and, they all have approx. the same range of Fielding % (.95 to .98).

I saw Marion play in the late 1940's, he made some unbelievable plays at SS. He deserves to be in the HOF. And, if he was a HOFer,
he would now be the oldest living HOFer at age 93.


TED Z