Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

Robextend · #1 01-17-2011, 08:20 PM

I would put Mazeroski at 2B over McPhee. I would argue Haines or Rixey at SP. Waite Hoyt didn't have an overwhelming career either, but did have great postseason success.

Not sure about the defense factor, but Ray Schalk can be argued at C.

I personally feel Hack Wilson is overrated. He had 5 "HOF" type years, possibly only 3 can be argued. His career numbers are nowhere near HOF worthy.

EDITED TO ADD: Agree with Peter's additions to the SP staff

bbcard1 · #2 01-17-2011, 08:38 PM

After further reflection, Red Schoendienst would be a pretty good (bad) candidate at second base...

ethicsprof · #3 01-17-2011, 10:16 PM

pre: maranville (had worse lifetime batting average than i did in my worthless little league era)
post: mazeroski( an amazing,even breathtaking homerun doth not a hall of famer make)

best,

barry

Kenny Cole · #4 01-17-2011, 10:59 PM

All the dissin' on Maz indicates that great defensive players get no love when it comes to the hof. His range factor was nearly a point above the leage average for his career. He won lots of games with his glove -- which, for reasons I don't fully understand, gets very little credit here. As the Rangers have repeatedly proven, you still lose when you score 10 runs and the other side scores 11.

No one is saying Ozzie Smith doesn't belong, but lots of people on this forum, most of whom I suspect never saw Maz play, have no issue with Ozzie but feel differently about Maz. I haven't sat down and put a pencil to it, but I suspect that Ozzie's numbers, in the context of the time he played, aren't much, if any, better than Maz's.

Ozzie is a great example of the recency/primacy concept. Voters saw him play, whereas most of them didn't see Maz play. They were blown away by Ozzie's defense, whereas Maz's defense was much less important because most of the voters never saw it. Ozzie wasn't much of a hitter in a hitter's era, but his qualifications for the HOF have yet to be questioned here. Maz, who was every bit the fielder Ozzie was,and probably as good a hitter in the context of his time, gets no love at all. Go figure.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 01-18-2011, 06:11 AM

I think it's the position, not when they played, at least in part. Right or wrong, a great fielding shortstop is valued much more highly than a great fielding second baseman.

FrankWakefield · #6 01-18-2011, 07:00 AM

I saw Mr. Mazeroski play, in person and on tv. Same for Ozzie. There is no reasonable comparison. Maz was a good, steady fielder. Oz was outstanding, exceptional... after watching him play a game I frequently felt that he was good for one run after he'd gotten a hit or walked, then scored; AND that he'd probably taken a hit or two away from the opposition, and frequently a run. I don't discount the recency / primacy idea.... but to throw the Mazersoki comparison in there is an injustice to Ozzie.

Kenny Cole · #7 01-18-2011, 07:57 AM

I understand why you say you don't discount the recency/primacy theory, since you seem to have fallen victim to it.

No less a personage than Bill James has stated that Maz's fielding statistics are probably the best of ANY player at ANY position. His fielding avg beats Ozzie by quite a bit, as does his range factor. Therefore, you can't reasonably argue that Ozzie's numbers are hurt by the fact that he was
trying to make plays on balls that other fielders wouldn't have gotten to. Maz got to those same balls and when he did, he made the play. Double plays? Maz has about 200 more in two less years. To be fair, Ozzie had more assists, but that's about it. There is no question that Ozzie was a great fielder, but Maz has numbers that are at least as good.

Unfortunately, you are right when you say that Maz was a good, steady fielder. He made the hard plays look easy. He wasn't flashy. He didn't to backflips when he ran out to his spot but, of course, backflips don't prevent runs or win games. There is no question that Ozzie has Maz beat when it comes to showmanship. Moreover, Ozzie had the benefit of much more television exposure than Maz did. More people saw his great plays, by an exponential factor, than saw those of Maz.

Maz has been retired for 40 years so memories have faded. People simply don't remember how great a fielder he actually was. However, if you base your evaluations even in part upon the assumption that fielding statistics actually mean something, it is pretty difficult to say with any degree of certainty that Ozzie was a better fielder than Maz was. The statistics simply do not support that assertion.

Shoeless Moe · #8 01-18-2011, 08:05 AM

Traynor - what kind of third basemen averages 3 HRs a year over 14 years. He'd never make it in todays game. He'd be lucky to make Team Korea.

Just givin' you a hard time Rheatt

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