Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[rhettyeakley]

David, I understand why many of the players that are on your list are on there but the one name that really jumped out at me as being the notable exception on your list is Pie Traynor.

At the time Traynor retired he was literally regarded as the greatest 3rd Baseman that had ever lived. While his statistics aren't as sexy as some anybody regarded as the "greatest" at any position during their career (or in his case history up to that point) doesn't really have any place on an overrrated list.

-Rhett

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...hall-of-famers

Looks who's number 1!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The fact that he was rated number one just begs the question whether or not he deserved the ranking, if not then he was overrated. It's like trying to prove God exists because the Bible says so. As to the merits, I don't really have an opinion, I think third basemen do tend not to have great stats.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...hall-of-famers

Looks who's number 1!!

According to the writer Sisler "stumbled" into the Hall of Fame and Lou Brock is "the worst pick ever".

This is possibly the "worst article ever".

[Doug]

Rube Marquard with a 201-177 record and a 3.08 ERA doesn't look overly impressive IMO.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Doug

Rube Marquard with a 201-177 record and a 3.08 ERA doesn't look overly impressive IMO.

Doug- you beat me to it. Rube Marquard went on a world wide tour publicizing himself as a HOFer after his good but hardly great career. We are not alone, a lot of fans feel he is the most overrated HOFer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought he just said Brock was the worst FIRST BALLOT pick ever.

[tbob]

Buck Weaver the most overrated?????

"I have played against them all and in my mind there is no doubt that the best third baseman in baseball is Buck Weaver." Ty Cobb.

Buck was quickly becoming a star after adjusting to the hot corner spot. You have to remember he played in the dead ball era so his stats won't be as glamorous as later 3rd sackers. He also batted after some of the best hitters in baseball so his RBI totals won't be reflective as later players but he was a clutch hitter.
I would agree his cards are overpriced but that's due to his noteriety as being the only one of the banned 8 who didn't try to throw the Series and was on "the square."
Does he deserve to be in the HOF based on his career? Probably not since his career was cut short by the travesty of Landis, but most overrated? No way.

[David W]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

David, I understand why many of the players that are on your list are on there but the one name that really jumped out at me as being the notable exception on your list is Pie Traynor.

At the time Traynor retired he was literally regarded as the greatest 3rd Baseman that had ever lived. While his statistics aren't as sexy as some anybody regarded as the "greatest" at any position during their career (or in his case history up to that point) doesn't really have any place on an overrrated list.

-Rhett

OK, I'll concede Traynor and replace him with Earl Combs and Joe Sewell....

[rhettyeakley]

Peter, that may actually be the worst "article" I've ever read. There are no real criteria he is following--and I have little doubt he read what Bill James wrote and (as with many Bill James subscribers) if James wrote it it couldn't possibly be wrong.

I am all for statistical studies and analysis BUT there IS a human element to baseball--if there wasn't it would be played by mindless robots. I have a really hard time looking back in history and saying the guys that played along side the players themselves were idiots and couldn't recognize talent. Pie Traynor was deemed as the best all-around third baseman in history at the time he retired--Bill James has him ranked outside the top 10-15 third sackers. George Sisler was considered one of the greatest pure contact hitters and an intelligent player--but acording to this joker (the writer of the article NOT Bill James) he "stumbled into the Hall". Also how can any list purporting to include the most overrated players in history not include the likes of Bill Maz, Jesse Haines, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey and the bunch. Really, Sisler, Traynor and Brock are the most overrated ever...joke!

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=rhettyeakley;863785]Also how can any list purporting to include the most overrated players in history not include the likes of Bill Maz, Jesse Haines, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey and the bunch./QUOTE]

I agree completely those players are not HOF worthy, along with many others. I don't think though that either the writer or James is suggesting Sisler, Traynor, Brock etc. don't belong in the HOF -- rather, they think they should not be regarded as highly as they are. As to your point about contemporaries, that sort of view can be biased, as we saw from the big push Frankie Frisch made to get lots of unworthies into the Hall in the 50s.

[Mark]

I agree that Frisch went too far with Lindstrom and Hafey, but most of the guys that he promoted were the mainstays of the Giants and Cardinals dynasties of the 20's and 30's. I am sympathetic to the argument that the top players on the top teams deserve an extra look when it comes to election to the Hall of Fame.

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;863789]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Also how can any list purporting to include the most overrated players in history not include the likes of Bill Maz, Jesse Haines, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey and the bunch./QUOTE]

I agree completely those players are not HOF worthy, along with many others. I don't think though that either the writer or James is suggesting Sisler, Traynor, Brock etc. don't belong in the HOF -- rather, they think they should not be regarded as highly as they are. As to your point about contemporaries, that sort of view can be biased, as we saw from the big push Frankie Frisch made to get lots of unworthies into the Hall in the 50s.

[bbcard1]

A player who is underrated in my opinion when it comes to being overrated is Rabbit Maranville. He compiled a gawdy .258 career average and averaged a homer a year despite playing much of his career in a notoriously high average era. Why he is seldom mentioned as overrated when most baseball fans would take someone like Don Kessinger or Larry Bowa over him is pretty amazing. He did have a long career, but so did Jack Quinn. He was a pretty good player on a pretty bad World Champion...but is largely forgotten even when it comes to being among the worst of the best.

The hall of fame is what it is. You can't fix it, but it's cool. I would love to see an "inner circle" with an original 10 and electing one additional player every other year. It may take ten years for Mantle to get it...it would lead to an incredibly spirited debate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The case for Rick Ferrell is hardly overwhelming. But hey he did have 143 hits in a season -- once.