100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards

tedzan · #1 01-07-2011, 10:40 AM

I like to collect color errors, and of all the T201's that I have seen over the years, I have found only this Cobb
that is missing its Blue ink.

[linked image]

What I find quite interesting is the accuracy of the STATS printed on the backs of most of these cards, that
still hold 100 years later. Of course, there are a few errors, I have found only six (of the 100) stats faulty.
The following details these errors......

1....Ford / Johnson......1910 season stats are of Otis Johnson's Jersey City stats (not the NY Highlanders).

2....Killian / Fitzpatrick......Ed Killian's stats. are incorrect.

3....Lush / Hauser......Lush is named "Ernest", but his batting and pitching stats are that of Johnny Lush.

4....Seymour / Dygert......Cy's 1910 stats are when he played for the NY Giants and Jimmy's 1910 stats are
when he played for the A's.

5....Speaker / Gardner......Gardner is named "Earl", but the stats are those of Larry Gardner.

6....Hartzell / Blair......Roy Hartzell's batting stats. are those of Topsy Hartsel. And, Walter Blair's stats are
totally incorrect. I couldn't find whose stats. they are of.
So, I leave it up to any one of you guys to figure out this one ?

TED Z

calvindog · #2 01-07-2011, 10:45 AM

tedzan · #3 01-07-2011, 03:20 PM

Scooter

Regarding your...... " did these cards originally come pre-folded in the packs? In your picture with the Cobb,
it looks as if they were folded already. But many of the cards look as if they have never been folded. "

I have never seen a T201 without a factory fold line. And, as my picture here in post #1 illustrates, judging
from the physical size of the MECCA cigarette packs, I don't see how an "un-folded" T201 could be inserted
into these packs.

TED Z

tedzan · #4 01-09-2011, 07:14 PM

I was happy to see Jack Coombs in the T201 set. I always wondered why Coombs was never featured in the T206 and T205 sets. With a 71-32 W-L
record, Coombs was 2nd to Matty in W-L percentage during the T206 production era (1909 - 1911). Jack led the A.L. in 1910 with 31 wins, and led
the A.L. in 1911 with 28 wins. He single-handedly won the World Series for the A's in 1910 with a 3-0 performance....plus batting .385 in the Series.
Check-out his 1910 stats on his T201 card (31-9).

Hey guys....with numbers like these, does anyone out there have a good explanation why Jack Coombs was not included in the T206 or T205 sets ?
Please chime in with your theory's.

[linked image]

Eddie Grant was the first Major League ballplayer to die in WWI....in the Argonne Forest campaign in France in 1918. In 1917, Grant enlisted in the U.S.
Army and reached the rank of Captain in his infantry battalion. Eddie Grant played for the Phillies, Cincinnati, and the New York Giants from 1907-1915.

In 1921, the New York Giants dedicated a memorial plaque to honor Eddie Grant in the Polo Grounds. It's my understanding that this plaque now resides
in the San Francisco ballpark.

TED Z

tedzan · #5 01-12-2011, 05:05 PM

My guess on the availability of the T201 cards was the Summer/Fall of 1911. Four subjects (Grant, Hartzell, Laporte, and Lobert)
were traded to their identified teams in Jan - Feb of 1911. Furthermore, we know that the Gold-bordered sets (T205, T80, etc.)
were available in the Spring/Summer of 1911.
Just my speculation....if anyone here has some more info. regarding tgis, p;ease chime in.

TED Z

Big Six · #6 01-12-2011, 05:33 PM

I picked this up raw from a guy in England a few years ago...was pleasantly surprised that it graded out as well as it did. One of my favorites...sorry no back scan.

Larry Ordet · #7 01-13-2011, 07:41 AM

I know I've posted this before, but....

iggyman · #8 01-13-2011, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Ordet

I know I've posted this before, but....

Those "quantum field theory" dudes are going to have a field day with that pic. Did you get up on your roof to take that shot (with room to spare) or did you borrow the hubble telescope???

Lovely Day...

Zach Wheat · #9 01-13-2011, 02:57 PM

Iggy,

I just emailed you as well. Can you tell me the dimensions of the extra margins on the side of your Cobb & Johnson? This might give us an idea of the size of the printing sheet.

Thanks

M Wheat

onlychild · #10 01-13-2011, 11:57 PM

One of my favorites, a four in one: Crawford, Cobb, Turner and Stovall.

I like the way Beckett grades these. If all the players can be identified, in this case four, it is considered an error and given a full grade. Had all players not been on there, it would have been severely downgraded instead. Very different than the PSA miscut qualifier.

Another error:

Kevin

Zach Wheat · #11 01-20-2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

I like to collect color errors, and of all the T201's that I have seen over the years, I have found only this Cobb
that is missing its Blue ink.

[linked image]

What I find quite interesting is the accuracy of the STATS printed on the backs of most of these cards, that
still hold 100 years later. Of course, there are a few errors, I have found only six (of the 100) stats faulty.
The following details these errors......

1....Ford / Johnson......1910 season stats are of Otis Johnson's Jersey City stats (not the NY Highlanders).

2....Killian / Fitzpatrick......Ed Killian's stats. are incorrect.

3....Lush / Hauser......Lush is named "Ernest", but his batting and pitching stats are that of Johnny Lush.

4....Seymour / Dygert......Cy's 1910 stats are when he played for the NY Giants and Jimmy's 1910 stats are
when he played for the A's.

5....Speaker / Gardner......Gardner is named "Earl", but the stats are those of Larry Gardner.

6....Hartzell / Blair......Roy Hartzell's batting stats. are those of Topsy Hartsel. And, Walter Blair's stats are
totally incorrect. I couldn't find whose stats. they are of.
So, I leave it up to any one of you guys to figure out this one ?

TED Z

OK, Ted I give up on conclusively answering your question on whose stats were substituted for Walter Blair's. However, I think I know the answer - I just can't prove it. Just to review a few quirks about the set while I lay out my suppositions.

A number of small questions arose while I was trying to answer Ted's question - namely why they included a high concentration of minor leaguers like the Eastern Association (EA) & American Association (AA); and why the set includes only 5 cards of the EA - instead of 6 cards like the AA. I believe there is a missing EA card. Further I believe both of these quirks directly relate to Ted's "change in factory location" theory (stated in his post #33) as well as his original question about Blair's stats.

I've gone back 4 years either side of 1910 for any player that reasonably could have been substituted for Blair's stats. First, I concentrated on other NY Highlanders - and then looked up stats on other ML'ers. There were a lot of good candidates - but none that really fit the bill.

The Highlanders were in the middle of a pennant race and had a problem with catching in 1910 - using 6 catchers for different portions of the 1910 season. Mitchell wasn't the answer - playing a combination of 1B/Catcher/P and neither was Sweeney (playing catcher part time platooning, but not hitting very well). The Highlanders used 3 other catchers prior to ending with Blair. Blair really didn't play catcher much until the next year and only played in 6 games in 1910 for the Highlanders. If you combine Sweeney & Mitchell's stats you come up with a stat line that is pretty close to the stat line on Blair's T201 card....but with an average well under Blair's stated 1910 stats:

Player G AB R H SB Avg.
Blair 146 481 44 124 16 .258
Mitch. & Sweeney 146 411 41 88 18 .210

Incorrect record keeping could have accounted for differences in some of the stats but frankly they still appear too far off to lead me to believe this was the answer.

I am going to shift gears a little and then I will tie everything together at the end. TRex Ted previously mentioned that printing was shifted from Factory 30 to the more efficient Factory 649 located in Rochester, NY. I think this theory is probably correct and explains one of the quirks about the set - why so many minor leaguers were included in the set. I think the location of the printing plant (Rochester) influenced card selection, resulting in more cards from the Eastern Association of which Rochester had a team. However, it doesn't explain why the EA had 5 cards and the AA had 6 cards. Although this could have been unintentional on the part of ATC, I believe it was deliberate. I believe the "missing" 6th EA card was Blair's and Blair's stats are his Rochester minor league stats. The set was probably printed after August 1910 and Blair would have been with the NY Highlanders.

Blair's contract was purchased by Rochester of the Eastern Association prior to the 1910 season for $1,500. In August of 1910, in an attempt to solve their catching problem - on the heels of a pennant race - the Highlanders purchased Blair's contract back for $7,000 and the Highlanders eventually finished in second place. Blair played for the Highlanders in 6 games in 1910 and only became a starter in 1911.

Further, I suspect there is a correlation between the location of the switch to the Rochester printing plant - if Ted is correct - and the reason so many Rochester and other minor league teams were in the set. The set was probably meant to have had wide local appeal since Rochester was part of the Eastern Association and a number of the EA teams were nearby. I suspect the set was intended to appeal to fans in these two markets (NY and the Midwest). Just a guess.

Can anyone confirm Blair's Rochester stats for 1910? Ted, thoughts?

M Wheat

Zach Wheat · #12 01-20-2011, 12:12 PM

Here are Blair's stats for Rochester Broncho's of the Easter League (now International League)

Walter Blair Games: 146 AB 481 Hits 124 with a .258 Average.

No data on runs or SB, but I think this is the answer Ted. The stats are his minor league stats with the Rochester Broncho's prior to the dissolution of the league and formation of the International League.

M Wheat

deadballera · #13 01-20-2011, 01:28 PM

error cards...

deadballera · #14 01-20-2011, 01:41 PM

Mathewson error card.

tedzan · #15 01-22-2011, 04:52 PM

Thanks Mike W....that's some nice research on Blair's Rochester info.

But, I have to correct statement you made in your Post #35......you referred to Rochester as the "printing plant". Not so,
all the cards** representing the American Tobacco Co. from 1909 to 1917 were printed in New York City at the American
Lithographic Co. (ATC's affiliate).

From NYC these T-cards were shipped to ATC's various Tobacco factory's.

**note..there are 2 exceptions to this. The T207 cards I believe may have been printed by another outfit. And, the T216's
were printed by the same printer in Philadelphia that produced the E-type cards in 1908-1910.

TED Z

novakjr · #16 01-22-2011, 05:13 PM

Got my first a few weeks back.

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