1905/6 Eddie Collins Pre Rookie Columbia Team Imperial Cabinet

[Jacklitsch]

The football has "City Champions 1906" written on it. Does that dispell the fact that it is Collins?

[prewarsports]

I am positive that while that IS a beautiful photo, it is not Columbia University and as such does not picture Eddie Collins. Yes teh City Champions would make it an amatuer team or a High School team from a city Called "Columbia", the University trophy balls almost always had scores from the key game on it or just "Champions 1905".

[novakjr]

I totally neglected the City Champs thing because I was distracted by the attached photo. I think I have to agree that this is probably a HS or YMCA team.

Also, upon further study. Collins played in September of 1906 for the A's under the name Sullivan in order to fool the people at Columbia and retain his amateur status...They didn't quite fall for it. He was ruled ineligible for all sports, but was allowed to continue coaching while he finished school. I'm not sure at what point they ruled him ineligible though, and I'm not sure if he coached football there...So even if this were Columbia University, he might not be in the 1906 photo. Also given the fact that this is a Championship photo, that would mean it was taken at the end of the season, at which point, if he were ruled ineligible probably wouldn't have been allowed by the school to be in the photo(of course unless he was also a coach).

If anyone has any more info about when exactly he was ruled ineligible, and what sports he coached, it would be great to have.

[4815162342]

How embarrassing.

[bmarlowe1]

Rhett is right as usual. If you just compare the angle that the right ear makes with the head of Collins (below left) to that seem in the photo of the young football player (below right) - it's not even close.

Also Collins has a much wider and deeper upper lip cupids bow.

[Al C.risafulli]

I have a cabinet photo of Collins from Columbia, circa 1905/06, and I have been desperately looking for a scan of it all day so that I could post it to this thread. The best one I could come up with is this weak one from my SGC registry:



Clearly Eddie Collins. And I was also trying to find a way to diplomatically and politely disagree that the football photo was Eddie, so I'm glad someone else discovered it.

So sorry that it didn't work out, I hate doing research into something and then hitting a dead end.

-Al

[novakjr]

I think I finally recognize who that is....

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

How embarrassing.

simple mistake anyone (other than Mark) could have made.

[earlybball]

Sorry I could not respond last night but I live in England so the time difference makes things difficult.

Apologies too for making things sound like absolute fact when I should be asking the knowledgeable board members for their opinions first (I was a bit excited).

That said, I still believe this to be of Columbia University and of Collins. I am more than happy to hear other opinions and enjoy discussing the pros and cons.

I did consider all the excellent points made already by the board and after further thought and research came to the following possibilities:

1) I did see the “City Champs” on the ball which had me thinking initially. Further research shows that Columbia was the NY city football champs for the 1905/1906 season.

They played a small series of games at the beginning of the season against Union College and Seaton Hall (although NJ competed in the NY circuit) and later defeated Cornell. Since they were less successful against their bigger out of state rivals they preferred to highlight what small successes were available.

Columbia’s 1905/06 Schedule and Results:

G Date Day School Opponent Pts Opp
1 Sep 30, 1905 Sat Columbia Union (NY) Win 23 0
2 Oct 4, 1905 Wed Columbia Seton Hall (NJ) Win 21 0
3 Oct 7, 1905 Sat Columbia Wesleyan (CT) T 0 0
4 Oct 14, 1905 Sat Columbia Williams W 11 5
5 Oct 21, 1905 Sat Columbia Amherst T 10 10
6 Oct 28, 1905 Sat Columbia Princeton L 0 12
7 Nov 4, 1905 Sat Columbia Yale L 0 53
8 Nov 18, 1905 Sat Columbia Cornell (NY) Win 12 6
9 Nov 25, 1905 Sat Columbia Pennsylvania L 0 23

2) Are they a high School or College Team? Well, I arrived very quickly at the latter.

A) First, they are just too old for high school students:

B) They look very professional in nature with equipment and pennant on display.

C) Most lower level high school team shots were done on a smaller cabinet size while the larger Ivy League colleges opted for the imperial cabinet size such the Columbia example. and most importantly

D) The cabinet was taken by the Betty Photographic Studio (photo attached) who were a contemporary of the Pach Bros. Both these studios were contracted at the time by the large Ivy League colleges to take team shots of their athletics programs. High school institutions rarely went to this much trouble or had the cash to contract of the preeminent studios.

3) Does he look like Collins?

A) Very few images of Collins are available from his college days. People’s features when they are younger are often smoother and not as hard and I believe the person in question displays all the facial attributes that Collins was known to have.

One of the best ways to match people’s faces is to look at the ears or so a forensics pal of mine told me. They are a bit like finger prints – everyone’s are slightly different. If you look at the inner ear, the size and the slant on both the Columbia cabinet and Al’s SGC photo, they are identical. This is just one of his facial similarities.

The only other photo (attached) I could compare it with during this period (Collins own copy of the 1905 Columbia Baseball Team) makes a compelling match.

B) If this is a photo of Columbia University’s football team, which I believe the above leads us to believe it is, then Collins should be on it.

Anyway, these are only my observations. What does everyone else think given the thoughts above?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Rhys indicated that he has a photo of the same Columbia football team, once he posts his, let's see if the uniforms match. That will still not prove that Collins is in the photo but at least we know if the correct team is being identified.

Also, from the 1905/06 game scores that were provided, that team went 4-3-2, I highly doubt that record would be good enough for city champs, not sure who the competition was though (not their game opponents but to be considered for city champs).

The photo of Collins added alongside is definitely him but not the player pictured in the team photo.


Here is a clip from an online baseball biography website:

After his junior year, Collins played briefly for the Philadelphia Athletics, using the name "Sullivan" to avoid losing his college eligibility. But, when he returned to school in the fall of 1906, he found that he had been ruled ineligible for playing as a semi-professional. Unable to play, he coached the Columbia baseball team during his senior year.