Blyleven & Alomar get in the HOF

[bigtrain]

I wish that we could turn back the clock ,take the politics out of it and make the HOF for just the immortals of the game. We can't. Like it or not, the HOF is not the Hall of Immortals and hasn't been since almost the beginning. There are a lot of players enshrined who were just very, very good, not great. We could all rattle off a dozen or more questionable selections and I don't say this to start a debate about any one of them. Tinker, Evers, Chance and Pennock inducted in the 40s. Wallace, Maranville, Schalk in the 50s. Rixey, Faber, Grimes, Hoyt, Haines, Marquard, Hafey, Lindstrom, George Kelly, etc. My point is that although Blyleven would not have gotten my vote, his election does not dilute the HOF. That was done long ago. Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

60 Shutouts is impressive. He get's my vote just on that.

[oldjudge]

Barry--Why so much emphasis on strikeouts? An out is an out. If you are a ground ball pitcher with a 3.50 ERA are you any different than a strikeout pitcher with a 3.50 ERA?

[Big Six]

there is a good arguement that ERA is a lousy stat, too...

[Chris-Counts]

At least they got it right with Blyleven and Alomar. They blew it with Larkin, but I suspect he'll get in next year. As for Surhoff, Tino Martinez and Grissom getting votes, it's proof that just because somebody pays a guy to write about baseball for a living doesn't mean he knows anything about the game ...

[barrysloate]

I wouldn't put so much emphasis on strikeouts, but it is a pitching stat that is loved by fans and respected by people who follow the game. Blyleven had 3701 and is 5th all time. Maybe only one of many factors, but a superlative one that is a big part of his career.

Look, as we've said there are at least 100 guys or more that don't belong in the hall, but if you accept the fact that Perry, Sutton, Niekro among others are in, then Blyleven should be too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would rank Perrry well above Niekro and Sutton, and so does Bill James. He had two Cy Youngs and just missed a third, to go with the rest of his stats.

[mintacular]

One of the by-products of rejecting steroid-era players is that borderline HOF pre-steroid guys like Blyleven will slip in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mintacular

One of the by-products of rejecting steroid-era players is that borderline HOF pre-steroid guys like Blyleven will slip in.

That is a great point. Given the mentality that 1 or 2 guys have to get in every year, replacements have been and will continue to be needed for Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens et al.

[SethY]

WAR really helped out Blyleven for the stat junkies.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Barry--Why so much emphasis on strikeouts? An out is an out. If you are a ground ball pitcher with a 3.50 ERA are you any different than a strikeout pitcher with a 3.50 ERA?

strikeout is more valuable than a groundout. so is absolute, it doesn't depend on the luck of the ball, the defense behind, or various park factors. a go pitcher can have a 3.50 era this year, but next year it can be 5.00 while pitching the same way. one of the ways to measure a pitcher's true effectiveness now is through his defense-indepedent or fielding-indepedent pitching metrics...pitchers can't really control wins and there's a bit of luck in the traditional era.

[triwak]

I think both are deserving. And I'm already on record with my incredulity about what some consider to be a "watered down" Hall of Fame! Only about ONE percent of the total number of major league players have been enshrined. Using that barometer, it is by far the most difficult HOF of any of the major sports in which to be honored! You may argue for or against any specific player. But I just do not understand this desire for a HOF of only the top 50 players, or whatnot. Come on, really?

[barrysloate]

There are certain glamour statistics and the strikeout is one of them. Why do we see fans in the bleachers bringing K cards to post after each strikeout when the team's ace is on the mound? It just has that status and the fans love them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bert has a website that, in part, promoted himself for the Hall. Interesting.
http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

[dabigyankeeman]

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

[Cy2009]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would rank Perrry well above Niekro and Sutton, and so does Bill James. He had two Cy Youngs and just missed a third, to go with the rest of his stats.

If you accept Perry in the Hall of fame, then you must let McGwire, Bonds et al. into the Hall as well. Does anyone think that Gaylord would have had any chance for the Hall without the spitball?

Cy

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

Funny, a truly bad team did not disturb Steve Carlton's 1972 accomplishments. And yet no one argues about whether or not he is HOF-worthy.

That is the difference between truly dominant and merely great. Carlton was dominant. Blyleven was great for a long time, but never dominant.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bert has a website that, in part, promoted himself for the Hall. Interesting.
http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

Peter, intriguing especially since one of the tables is Most # of Career Home runs allowed, where Blyleven ranks seventh. The site says "ALL-TIME HOMERUNS ALLOWED- Blyleven ranks 7th (6 of top 10 are in the Hall of Fame - Moyer and Johnson not eligible yet)"

I'm not sure how or why it is relevant that 6 of the top 8 are in the HOF, since the last time I checked, giving up a Home Run was a BAD thing...

[tbob]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

One of the two guys who voted for BJ Surhoff was on the radio yesterday and said he followed Surhoff since he was a 12 year old playing ball and knew him and his family and the vote was largely ceremonial, a one time vote. That doesn't excuse it but certainly explains why.

[rhettyeakley]

Peter, intriguing especially since one of the tables is Most # of Career Home runs allowed, where Blyleven ranks seventh. The site says "ALL-TIME HOMERUNS ALLOWED- Blyleven ranks 7th (6 of top 10 are in the Hall of Fame - Moyer and Johnson not eligible yet)"
I'm not sure how or why it is relevant that 6 of the top 8 are in the HOF, since the last time I checked, giving up a Home Run was a BAD thing...

What is misleading about that as a statistic is that if a pitcher is no good and gives up a lot of home runs he will not last long enough in the league to make that list. When you are a power/strikout pitcher you WILL give up homeruns. Also, in order for a pitcher to last 15 to 20 years in the league is very difficult because they need to show they are consistently worth the roster spot, which is why most pitchers at the top of that list are there--longevity, NOT b/c they weren't any good. It is like someone bringing up Cy Young's LOSS total and using that as the reason Young isn't any good--VERY misleading stat as Young also has the most WINS.

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

Not so fast on Olerud, I don't consider the guy a HOFer BUT he quietly put up some decent #'s and was regarded as a good fielder as well. Combined with the fact that Olerud may very well have been the slowest player to EVER PLAY I don't have any problem with his name on that list--he is a very similar "statistical" player as Will Clark. Also, Olerud is among the best guys to ever play the game.

-Rhett

[tbob]

The spiting incident was bad but lest we forget, Ty Cobb climbed in the stands and savagely beat up a cripple who was supposedly heckling him. Juan Marichal took a bat to the head of Johnny Roseboro and could have killed him. I think that put in to perspective the spitting incident shouldn't have kept the best 2b of his time out of the Hall.
As far as Blyleven goes, when he retired was second all time on the strike out list. He lost a lot of 1-0 and 2-1 complete games because the Twins' offense was awful during those years.
I think the Hall of Fame is for players who were the best of their time. Obviously there is a tier of dominant players and a tier of great players. Bert was not dominant but he had a great career.
I also think Jack Morris should be in. Maz is in but would never have made it except for the HR in Game 7 in 1960. Morris had a superb career and was the ace for 3 different teams, the Tigers, Twins and Blue Jays. His performance in game 7 in 1991 should be the icing on the cake. I hope he makes it eventually.

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by tbob

One of the two guys who voted for BJ Surhoff was on the radio yesterday and said he followed Surhoff since he was a 12 year old playing ball and knew him and his family and the vote was largely ceremonial, a one time vote. That doesn't excuse it but certainly explains why.

Yeah, I think most of the time those votes are something like that, but it still isnt right in my eyes. Hey, if I could vote than maybe one day I could vote for Doug Meintkeiwicz, because I have met him quite a few times and he is nicest guy!!!

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Cy2009

If you accept Perry in the Hall of fame, then you must let McGwire, Bonds et al. into the Hall as well. Does anyone think that Gaylord would have had any chance for the Hall without the spitball?

Cy

Just reading "Now Pitching" byBob Feller. He included Gaylord Perry in his top 10 pitchers of all-time. I'm willing to bet that the Perry "spitball" had much more psychologcal benefit for him than it did practical.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by byrone

Just reading "Now Pitching" byBob Feller. He included Gaylord Perry in his top 10 pitchers of all-time. I'm willing to bet that the Perry "spitball" had much more psychologcal benefit for him than it did practical.

Somewhere I read an interview with his catcher for one of his Cy Young seasons (forget which one) who said he threw maybe two spitters the whole year. It was the mind games that gave him the advantage.

[barrysloate]

I was thinking the same thing. If Mazeroski didn't hit that home run he's probably not in the Hall of Fame.

[Touch'EmAll]

So where do you put Blyleven on a ranking scale for his era?

Was he the most dominant pitcher?

Was he the second most dominant pitcher of his era?

Was he the 10th most dominant pitcher of his era?

Lets see: He needs to be ranked with Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Sutton, Eckersly, Jack Morris, Dave Stewart, Luis Tiant, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry - I know I am forgetting a few.

But do honestly rank Blyleven up there with the Best of the Best??

Come on, answer is not quite.

[nolemmings]

I'm biased in favor of Bert, who not only didn't pitch in the AL East but who also was not widely liked by the media--he was far from the affable fellow on TV these days. Still, 60 shutouts just doesn't lie, especially with that many strikeouts. That's a guy taking the mound and you not being able to do a damn thing to beat him, oftentimes not even to put the ball in play. That is dominant, IMO.

Blyleven had one fewer shutout than Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver, and more than Gibson and Carlton--only 4 deadball pitchers and Warren Spahn (63) had more. He finished in the top 5 in WHIP seven times, ERA seven times and Ks/Ws thirteen times. Compare Carlton 5-5-7, Seaver 9-7-7, Palmer 6-10-1 and Jenkins 4-0-9.

Count me among those who places little on All-Star appearances, especially for pitchers and during an era when at least one team had to have a representative. On Bert's teams, this meant Carew and Stargell/Parker for the first 11 seasons of his career, and Puckett for several more later. Of the four seasons he played in Cleveland, Bert made the game once and should have made it a second time, 1984, when his season numbers were better than four of the five starters--only Boddicker had him in wins 20 to 19 (although Boddicker had 2 more losses) and ERA 2.79 to 2.87--and where one, White Sox lone representative Richard Dotson, finished under .500 with an ERA of 3.59. At the end of his career in Anaheim, he had another All Star year, going 17-5 with a 2.73 ERA and league-leading 5 shutouts at age 38. These numbers were stronger than any of the All-Star starters other than World Champion A's Dave Stewart and Mike Moore. No All-Star game for Bert then either. Big deal.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Lets see: He needs to be ranked with Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Sutton, Eckersly, Jack Morris, Dave Stewart, Luis Tiant, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry - I know I am forgetting a few.

Well as far as that list goes I put Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Jenkins and Perry ahead of Blyleven. It can certainly be argued that he was better than Sutton, Morris or Tiant. And although Dave Stewart was a very good pitcher, he isn't in the same league as those other guys. During the era in which those guys pitched Eckersley was a SP, and he is in the HOF because of his days as a RP so I don't think Eck should be in this argument.

[Touch'EmAll]

All I am saying is if Blyleven is, say, the 6th (give or take) most dominant pitcher of his era - does that give him HOF credentials?

Does the 6th most domnant center fielder of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant shortstop of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant catcher of the era get in HOF?

At some point you have to draw the line.

[Anthony S.]

Pitchers make up a minimum of 40% of every roster (50% of a roster is you have a 4 game series at Coors Field). Being the 6th most dominant pitcher of an era means a heck of a lot more than being the 6th best catcher of an era.

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

All I am saying is if Blyleven is, say, the 6th (give or take) most dominant pitcher of his era - does that give him HOF credentials?

Does the 6th most domnant center fielder of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant shortstop of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant catcher of the era get in HOF?

At some point you have to draw the line.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

All I am saying is if Blyleven is, say, the 6th (give or take) most dominant pitcher of his era - does that give him HOF credentials?

Does the 6th most domnant center fielder of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant shortstop of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant catcher of the era get in HOF?

At some point you have to draw the line.

That is a silly argument, take a look at your average team roster, what percent of the roster is made up of 1st Basemen? There is usually one and a Utility player to fill the holes when needed. Look at the team pitching corp--Pitchers make up nearly half a teams roster, so why would you compare it to any single position in the field? Totally apples & oranges here.

[Touch'EmAll]

Point taken - yes, pitchers should have a higher percentage in HOF.

But really folks, Blyleven is now in - but Roger Maris, a two time MVP and holder of one of the most hallowed records in all of sports (pre-juice era) is not in HOF ??? Maris is not famous enough - after all, its called the hall of "FAME."

I did see Blyleven in person when he pitched for the Angels. He had one of smoothest deliveries of any pitcher I ever saw - smooth as silk. And yes, lifetime shutout numbers point in his favor.

[Robextend]

Roger Maris should be in an individual achievement HOF for his 61HR season, but his overall numbers are far from HOF worthy.

[oldjudge]

TBob--Are you on drugs?

"I think that put in to perspective the spitting incident shouldn't have kept the best 2b of his time out of the Hall."


What second baseman are you talking about? Certainly not Alomar. What about Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Morgan, Robinson, Frisch, Gehringer?

[Anthony S.]

Tbob said best of "his time" not "all-time."

[oldjudge]

Ah, maybe I'm on drugs