Colgan Proofs/Squares

[FrankWakefield]

Well at least you have some passion about these old cards. I admire that.

[millerhouse]

To all,

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into the dating party for this issue, but how do you explain the Harry Davis card with Cleveland, which was sold in the November 2009 Goodwin auction (Lot 251)? Davis played from about 1901 to 1911 with the A's, and then managed Cleveland in 1912, although he left that post with only about a fifth of the season remaining.

Indeed, the only other player change in the set is Harry Lord (who can be found issued with Chicago and with Boston captions). Neither of these cards is currently checklisted in the SCD Standard Catalog. My recollection is that Lord switched teams in 1910, though I'm certain someone can check verify this date.

Millerhouse

[millerhouse]

To all,

As has been alluded to in prior posts, the Standard Catalog checklist for these is woefully missing a number of cards, like the Lords mentioned in my prior post and one of the two Davises (Philadelphia and Cleveland).

What's amazing to me is that this set was first checklisted, much more completely, by Richard Egan in his seminal work on Candy and Gum cards, issued around 1969/1970. Why the SCD checklister over these many years has managed to ignore Egan's listing is a mystery. In any event, if an old-timer out there could pull out a copy of Egan's work, my guess is that maybe twenty-five or so of these squares would be added to the Standard Catalog list.

By the way, I'm also the guy, mentioned above, with about a dozen duplicates from this set, which includes dupes of Harry Coveleski, Ed Konetchy, Dode Paskert, Billy Purtell and George Stone, none of which appears in the Standard Catalog.

Millerhouse

[FrankWakefield]

Millerhouse,

I mention 1912 in post #46. I think new Colgans cards were being developed or made about then. The little round cards cover a broader date than that covered by the white border tobacco cards, ie T206.

[DixieBaseball]

Millerhouse - Thanks for the input and getting involved. This is valuable information that would make the Daubert-Memphis 09 theory yield to the Davis theory (Can go forward with dated production, but can't go back, ie Davis 1912, Daubert 1909) I think your explanation simply squashes the 1909 theory. Did someone mention that Eagen's notes were included in Bert Sugar's 1977 first edition sports card book or did I dream that? We need to get Eagan's checklist in on this thread so we can forge ahead with discussion. Thanks Millerhouse for your info !

[FrankWakefield]

From Mr. Ricard Egan...

"Part 3: An anonymous paper issue, not yet cataloged, has been located which uses photos from E-254. The titles of the cards have been removed and a printed title added in the bottom obverse. The photos are definately from E-254 as some are known with lettering that covered the photo in place although the background and associated lettering has been removed. The following players are known, in some cases the photos have been reversed, and incorrected spellings corrected." (sic)

1. AMES, New York Nat'l.
2. BABB, Memphis
3. BAERWALD, Memphis
4. BAILEY, St. Louis Am. L.
5. BAKER, Phila. Am. L.
6. BATES, Phila. Nat'l L.
7. BEAUMONT, Boston Nat'l L.
8. BECKER, Boston Nat'l L.
9. BRIDWELL, New York Nat'l L. (rev.)
10. BROCKETT, New York Am. L. (rev.)
11. BURCH, Brooklyn
12. BUSH, Detroit
13. CAMNITZ, Pittsburgh
14. CHANCE, Chicago Nat'l. L.
15. CHASE, New York Am. L.
16. CLARKE, Pittsburgh
17. COBB, Detroit
18. COLLINS, Phila. Am. L.
19. COVELESKI, Cincinnati
20. CRISS, St. Louis Am. L.
21. DAUBERT, Memphis (rev)
22. DAVIS, Phila. Am. L.
23. DEMMETT, New York, Am. L.
24. DEVLIN, New York, Am. L.
25. DOUGHTERTY, Chicago Am. L.
26. ELBERFIELD, New York Am. L.
27. ENGLE, New York Am. L.
28. EVANS, St. Louis, Nat'l L.
29. EVERS, Chicago, Nat'l L.
30. GASPAR, Cincinnati
31. GETZ, Boston Nat'l L.
32. GIBSON Pittsburgh
33. HARTSELL, Phila. Am. L.
34. HARTZELL, St. Louis Am. L.
35. HEWLEY, Rochester
36. HOOPER, Boston Am. L.
37. JENNINGS, Detroit
38. Joss, Cleveland
39. KNABE, Phila. Nat'l L.
40. KNIGHT, New York Am. L.
41. KONETCHY, St. Louis Nat'l L.
42. LAFITTE, Rochester
43. LANGE, Chicago Amer. L.
44. LEACH, Pittsburgh
45. LELIVELT, Detroit
46. LORD, Boston
47. LUDWIG, Milwaukee
48. MADDOX, Pittsburgh
49. McINTYRE, Detroit
50. MILLER, Pittsburgh
51. MITCHELL, Cincinnati
52. MULLER, Detroit
53. MURPHY, Phila. Am. L.
54. PARENT, Chicago Am. L.
55. PASKERT, Cincinnati
56, PEITZ, Louisvile
57. PFEISTER, Chicago Nat'l L.
58. PHILLIPE, Pittsburgh
59. PURTELL, Chicago Am. L.
60. RAYMOND, New York Nat'l L.
61. RUCKER, Brooklyn
62. SCHARDT, Milwaukee
63. SEYMOUR, New York Nat'l L.
64. SNODGRASS, New York Nat'l L.
65. SPADE, Cincinnati
66. STEINFELDT, Chicago Nat'l L.
67. STONE, St. Louis Am. L.
68. Sullivan, Louisville
69. SUMMERS, Detroit
70. UNGLAUB, Washington Am. L.
71. WADDELL, St. Louis Am. L.
72. WAGNER, Pittsburgh
73. WHITE, Buffalo
74. WILSON, Pittsburgh
75. WILTSE, New York Nat'l L.
76. WOODS, Buffalo
77. ZIMMERMAN, Chicago Nat'l L.

On the Paskert card one can see the "CIA" that is printed on the collar but the remainder is removed.

All cards compared are same picture."

THAT, is what is in Mr. Egan's Handbook. It is at the end of his list XXVII.

I incorrectly listed Parent as with Pittsburgh, Egan shows him with Chicago Am. L., I've made that correction. 1-5-11 11am.

[FrankWakefield]

Bill Schardt was with Milwaukee only one season, 1910. Bill Ludwig was there for 1910 and part of 1911. Ed Laffite was with Rochester only for the 1910 season. That makes 1909 or earlier an extremely unlikely date for these square cards, nay impossible date for the cards.

So it seems that whoever supplied photographs and or cards to Colgans, and then AutoSales as they continued with the Colgans line, that this supplier later provided these square cards to someone, and this would have occurred AFTER the commencement of issue/distribution of E254s in 1909. Mr. Egan's comment about the letters on Paskert's shirt suggest that the round Colgans cards came first. Maybe the supplier/printer had a deal where they were obligated to supply round cards only to Colgans and their successor. So what they next sent out were these square cards.

And Egan's List notes 3 of the square cards having reversed images from the Colgans issue.