2011 HOF Ballot

[Chris Counts]

For those who don't consider Barry Larkin worthy of the Hall of Fame, can you come up with 10 shortstops who were better? Also, is the Hall of Fame big enough for one of the best 10 shortstops in history? Bill James ranks him sixth and he's the best baseball numbers guy of all. So to all of Larkin's detractors, I challenge you to prove to me ... with a comparative statistical analysis and not simply opinions ... why Larkin isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Induction into the Hall of Fame should be based not on perceptions, allegiances and myths, but on hard numbers that take into account all the factors (dead ball vs. live ball, size of ballparks, etc.) that skew statistics. Sadly, while James and others have done the work, only a small percentage of baseball fans have even noticed. As a result, the debate goes on, but at the same time, it goes nowhere ...

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

For those who don't consider Barry Larkin worthy of the Hall of Fame, can you come up with 10 shortstops who were better? Also, is the Hall of Fame big enough for one of the best 10 shortstops in history? Bill James ranks him sixth and he's the best baseball numbers guy of all. So to all of Larkin's detractors, I challenge you to prove to me ... with a comparative statistical analysis and not simply opinions ... why Larkin isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Induction into the Hall of Fame should be based not on perceptions, allegiances and myths, but on hard numbers that take into account all the factors (dead ball vs. live ball, size of ballparks, etc.) that skew statistics. Sadly, while James and others have done the work, only a small percentage of baseball fans have even noticed. As a result, the debate goes on, but at the same time, it goes nowhere ...

Chris,

I always respect your arguments and your passion for the Larkin argument. I just don't think of him as a HOFer, and here are some reasons why:

He had an injury riddled career...he only played 140 games or more in a season 7 times. If he was able to stay on the field more, his stats would probably look much better but we can't factor those lost stats in.

Only hit more than 20HR twice, 100runs twice, never had a 100RBI season.

2340 career hits is excellent, but for a non-power guy doesn't strike me as HOF material.

379 SB and 3 Gold Gloves is good but not enough of a factor IMO to add with his offense to get him in.

I am sure you have many arguments for and I respect them, and that is why I love these kind of debates.

Rob

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

For those who don't consider Barry Larkin worthy of the Hall of Fame, can you come up with 10 shortstops who were better? Also, is the Hall of Fame big enough for one of the best 10 shortstops in history? Bill James ranks him sixth and he's the best baseball numbers guy of all. So to all of Larkin's detractors, I challenge you to prove to me ... with a comparative statistical analysis and not simply opinions ... why Larkin isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Induction into the Hall of Fame should be based not on perceptions, allegiances and myths, but on hard numbers that take into account all the factors (dead ball vs. live ball, size of ballparks, etc.) that skew statistics. Sadly, while James and others have done the work, only a small percentage of baseball fans have even noticed. As a result, the debate goes on, but at the same time, it goes nowhere ...

Who are the top 10 Shortstops according to James? It would be interesting to see this list.

Also, before Larkin & Ripken, SS was primarily a defensive position where teams carried players on their roster for their glove, not their bat. That is probably the main reason that James has him as high as he does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think he is overrated by those who count him among the few greatest pitchers ever, but he has to be in the Hall given the sheer outrageousness of the strikeout totals, plus the 7 no hitters, not to mention the 324 wins. His ERA was 10 or so points better than Blyleven, and he had many more all star appearances.

[Chris Counts]

Phil, here's James' list. He didn't include active players. If he did, A-Rod and Jeter would obviously be high on the list ...

1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
8. Joe Cronin
9. Alan Trammell
10. Pee Wee Reese

Also, Larkin's various injuries, and the time he lost as a result, often come up in Hall of Fame discussions. I did a quick survey, and for what it's worth, he played more games at shortstop in his career than roughly half the shortstops in the Hall of Fame ...

How many Gold Glove shortstops can you name with a ton of steals, an MVP award, a World Series ring and a .370 career on-base average? If they gave out Gold Gloves in 1910, certainly Honus Wagner would quailify, but who else?

[Robextend]

I wonder if Concepcion would be #11,

2300+ Hits, 9 AS Games, 5 Gold Gloves, 300+ SB

[Chris Counts]

Rob, I'm a huge fan of both the Reds and Concepcion, but his on-base average is 50 points lower than Larkin's. That a deal breaker for me ...

[carrigansghost]

Rob did this as a way to further a Larkin's case. He already had my vote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I generally like Bill James' take on things, but rating Arky Vaughan as the number 2 shortstop in history is ridiculous.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Phil, here's James' list. He didn't include active players. If he did, A-Rod and Jeter would obviously be high on the list ...

1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
8. Joe Cronin
9. Alan Trammell
10. Pee Wee Reese

Also, Larkin's various injuries, and the time he lost as a result, often come up in Hall of Fame discussions. I did a quick survey, and for what it's worth, he played more games at shortstop in his career than roughly half the shortstops in the Hall of Fame ...

How many Gold Glove shortstops can you name with a ton of steals, an MVP award, a World Series ring and a .370 career on-base average? If they gave out Gold Gloves in 1910, certainly Honus Wagner would quailify, but who else?

That list goes to strengthen my argument that before Larkin's time, SS was just a defensive position, since 7 of Bill James' top 10 SS are "modern" SS.

There's some great names there, but that has to be "the weakest" Top 10 list for any position in the Hall of Fame. Just an indication of what the position used to be.