Opinions: Fro-Joy Premium

[drc]

It's correct that the cards and the card sheets were massively reprinted way back when, but not the Ruth photo premium. Thus, if you find a Ruth photo premium it's many, many times more likely to be genuine. The infamous Fro Joy reprints problem is with the cards and card sheets, not the Ruth photo premium.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks for the information.

FKW, yeah, I bought it from a seller that sells pre-war cards and seems to know what he's doing. When I received it, it never crossed my mind that it was possibly not authentic.

[Clutch-Hitter]

I sent this Fro-Joy premium to BECKETT, knowing it was authentic, and requested authentication only, no number grade. I sent it because my son will be getting my Ruth cards and an authenticated card will be less hassle, which is an excuse for me to collect cards I guess. This was BECKETT'S conclusion:



I've been collecting pre-war for approx 15 years, including Ruth cards, and it never occurred to me that they would conclude the card was not authentic. And yes, questionable authenticity means not authentic. So I e-mailed Beckett and received the following reply:

"Hello Greg,
We certainly recommend sending it to PSA or SGC for a second opinion if you are unhappy with our conclusion. We are very confident that you will get the same response from them. Also, just so you are aware, if PSA or SGC does find that the card is altered you will get the same “Questionable Authenticity” response from them that we gave.
Thanks,
BGS

So it's altered? Is it counterfeit or is it altered? They have a little check box for altered. Heck, they didn't even write a sentence on the card, no brief explanation, nothing. BECKETT can't make up BECKETT'S mind. BECKETT, the leader in grading half cards, cards with no name, etc, oh, and 1995 Topps. If anybody knows that PSA and SGC don't grade Fro-Joys, it's Beckett. No, if anything, SGC and PSA would say trimmed because of it's dimensions, and BECKETT knows they don't grade this issue, so it's an integrity issue for BECKETT to say that. Almost 50.00, man why did I send the modern card people this card? Where's that BECKETT guy that hangs around this board?

We all know what happens to a counterfeit image when a flash impacts that image directly: it wipes the image out, fluoresces and wipes it out. I intentionally used a flash for the pictures and hit the card dead center at a 90 degree angle.


This is where the depressed portion ended, which is one significant clue to anybody, wouldn't you say?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Here's a link to Lengendary Auctions May 2010 auction, which included a 1928 Fro Joy Premium in it's entirety. They included pictures/scans and cropped the border of the photo to allow for a better view in one of them. If you click on the thumbnail, it'll zoom in.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...x?lotid=108654

[Ladder7]

As with most other counterfeited items. The dark areas are always too black where they meet the white areas (lack of transition), removing the real subtle folds and reflections in images. ie; the dark area beneath the R arm, under the brim and the front belt loops.

Nowadays, seems the savvy scammers are using blank pages from very old books etc, to feed their printers -these won't flouresce.

Look at every item as dirty 'til proven clean. And use the experienced eyes of the collectors on this board if in doubt.

If Beckett slabbed this reprint, they'd certainly be knuckleheads.

[Leon]

According to Beckett, a very reliable vintage grading company from the hundreds of vintage cards I have seen graded by them, it is of questionable authenticity. That is their stance. I even emailed them about this item after this thread was posted and they stand by their summation. So why is this such a problem? How can we be positive it IS authentic? I just re-read the thread and probably just missed something. Personally, I can't tell and might even have a hard time in person. best regards

btw, most grading companies will not come on a chat board to talk about their grades.....I don't recall it happening....thought it might have I don't remember it ...

[ullmandds]

upon my initial viewing of the above scan...fake was the first thing that registered to me...the photo doesn't appear very clear...and the coloring of the background seems wrong to me. I WAS duped by buying an uncut fro joy sheet back in college in the late eighties...and this one has a similar lack of quality to me...just my opinion.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Steve and Leon. This is the reason I initiated this thread, so experts could view the card and tell me what I need to know about this card.

Leon, I have fondly associated the name Beckett with sportscards for many years now. They have authenticated many vintage card issues but this isn't a common issue like T206's, etc. If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, The Beckett name should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue. As for the important part, I'm trying to figure out if this card is authentic, as I believe it is.

Steve, I do agree that an authentication company should err on the side of caution if there are any doubts. Assuming this is a counterfeit, the criminal happened to correctly measure the interior, depressed portion of the card. If this is a counterfeit, there has to be a way to positively identify the counterfeit characteristics of the card.

I have a Canon T1i, tripod, macro lens, detachable flash, remote switch etc. What do I need to look for? Trust me, I want to prove this card is a counterfeit and identify the associated characteristics.

Here's a link to an REA auction:

Beckett replied to my e-mail that PSA and/or SGC would reach the same conclusion: ALTERED, and would subsequently label the their conclusion the way Beckett did: QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.

I've been a PSA member for approx a decade and know that PSA would not indicate QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY on an altered item. PSA would say: ALTERED. Again, altered means authentic but enhanced, right?

I did like the fact that Beckett replied to my e-mail, and I understand why they wouldn't post on this forum. I also like the fact that Beckett, a name I have associated with our hobby for a long time now, is bold enough to authenticate Fro Joy's. I like their holders, their fair prices.......and the Beckett name.

If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, Beckett should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Peter.

[Leon]

Each time that I have given Beckett cards, which have issues, they have explained in full, and to my satisfaction, why something is the way it is. Heck, if you think you know something different, and have firm reasoning behind it, I am positive they will listen. I know part of the process for determining authenticity is by examining the printing process, ink and patterns. I am aware they do that with very good objectivity, based on processes from the era, as part of their evaluation. I wouldn't look so much at the other attributes (size, trimming, wear etc...) before I was comfortable with that one. regards...

oh yeah, you don't really need to make 20?pt bold letters. Most members can see with the normal writing. You could bold it or underline it, but those big letters don't really help your cause very much. We understand you are upset.

[fkw]

PS. If Bob reads this.... the SCD needs to change the description to include the words "B&W" instead of "printed in Blue"

The OPs looked sort of blue to me, but I thought thats the way they should look. Ive never seen one of these in person.

after zooming in on the Legendary Auctions one, I can see slight differences in the contrast under arm, boldness of signature, etc., but they are not obvious until you look for them.

If it is a fake its a good one and fooled me, I almost bid on it myself, mainly for the reason I had never seen a fake before.

Makes no sense to go through all that trouble of finding the paper and printing this out then damaging it to the point where it loses 90%+ of its value. ??Lots of work for less than $100 profit??