1960 Pirates v. Yanks Game 7 MLB Network 8pm

[barrysloate]

I also feel it was an absolute joy to watch that game last night. It is amazing that a game of such magnitude, with 19 runs scoring and all manner of turning points, was played in 2 hours and 36 minutes. A game like that today would be passing the four hour mark and no matter how exciting would feel interminable. Everything about that broadcast was good, from the crisp play, the spare broadcasting, the absence of endless messages across the screen, even the lack of instant replay. Today a guy hits a grounder to shortstop and we have to watch it again from six different angles.

When I was a kid growing up all the other kids always talked about the ground ball that hit Tony Kubek in the throat, and I had never seen it. Last night was the first time, and it was a really wicked hop. And I always wondered about Mantle's dive back to first, and it sure was a split second play. It was just a game for the ages.

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times.

And I too noticed around the sixth inning or so that nobody seemed to have struck out. Sure enough, the game went nine innings without even one strikeout. Simply an mazing game of baseball.

[mr2686]

Regarding Coates, after seeing the game last night I'd have to agree that he's getting a raw deal. He had to veer off to get to 1st after it was obvious he couldn't get to the ball and Moose could. I think this is one of those things where the players remember it one way, and since the film was lost for 50 years, they haven't seen any replays and it's just become a fact now.
Even Bobby Richardson seemed to soften after seeing the film.
Yogi still swears that Jackie Robinson was out when stealing home in the WS, but new replays from different angles support the safe call, so I doubt anyone can convince him otherwise about Coates.
Both Coates and Yogi will be at the 61 reunion in January....wonder if they'll talk to each other?
Anyway, I thought the whole presentation of the Game last night and the discussions between innings was really good, and I really enjoyed it.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times. .

Of course, I don't know exactly what went into the selection process for tv interviews in the clubhouse that afternoon. But I'd like to say that it's not clear to me that Bob Prince was guilty of any racism or bias in his role as an interviewer that day. I was an infant in 1960 and can't speak to how Prince related to Clemente that year. But I listened to Prince broadcast just about every game from the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies, and he was a very great admirer of Clemente, and I know for a fact that Clemente felt very warmly toward Prince. Maybe the people at NBC who produced the post-game interviews decided who got to jump up on the table with Prince to talk "coast to coast." Maybe they didn't want to hear Roberto speak with his accent. But except for the one time that Prince reached down and pulled Hal Smith up to the table to talk with him, Bob Prince just stood there and spoke with whomever happened to hop up and say hi. Besides, I think there were a few other principals who didn't get an interview: Stuart, maybe Friend and Nelson and surely Mizell. And what about Murtaugh?

[barrysloate]

Fair point Mark, and it's possible that Clemente never got close enough to Prince in the clubhouse to be called up. He was private and maybe didn't feel comfortable stepping up to the microphone. Whatever the reason, he was unquestionably one of the team's true stars, and it seemed like a glaring omission.

[slidekellyslide]

Ted, I hope you get a chance to see the play for yourself...Yogi and Boyer are just plain wrong. Coates broke to first base almost instantaneously...he veers only slightly to avoid colliding with Skowron who was directly in his path...either way there is no way they were going to get Clemente anyway..Clemente was almost to the bag by the time Skowron picked up the ball.

I did a little research on this this morning and I can see in Yogi's latest book "You can learn a lot by observing.." he just flat out states that Coates didn't cover first...then inexplicably he goes on to say that he never blamed any single person for a loss. Yogi owes Coates an apology and I would hope that at least the NY Press would examine this issue. You reading this O'Keeffe?

[Cy2009]

The game is on again today (Thursday) at 3:00 PM eastern time.

Cy

[tedzan]

Not only have I seen this game (via an old VHS tape), but in the Fall of 1960, I heard the entire game in real-time on my radio.

Please do not misunderstand me, I'm not blaming Jim Coates. I simply have relayed to all of you a first hand opinion told to me
from a ballplayer, Clete Boyer, who witnessed this event from a very close vantage point. Clete's story tells of Yogi's continuing
grudge towards Coates. Apparently, Yogi harbored this grudge for at least 18 years (I had a 40 minute conversation with Clete
at the Ft. Washington show..circa 1999). If I recall correctly, Clete faulted Coates action (or lack of it) just the same as Yogi.

As, I have already stated, these guys also questioned Stengel's choice of Coates in relief of Shantz. Furthermore, they faulted
Casey Stengel for not starting Ford....or, not bringing in Ryan Duren, etc., etc.. The blame game goes on and on. All of these
Yankees were devasted; and, it's human nature to play the blame game.

Clete, however, did not hold a grudge. He was a very friendly and talkative guy. After his signing session was over, he returned
to my table and we continued Talkin' Baseball for another 1/2 an hour while he sorted thru more of my Bowman cards.


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

I didn't realize that any film of this game (other than Maz's homer) was out there before it was found in Bing's house. I still think Clete and Yogi are wrong...even Costas mentioned it.

All that aside it really was interesting to watch the game...clearly one of the best WS games ever played...and it was a thrill to see Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris, and Roberto Clemente play...and for me to see Bobby Shantz pitch was special....he's been a favorite player of mine for a very long time, but I had never even seen film of him pitching.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

...and for me to see Bobby Shantz pitch was special....he's been a favorite player of mine for a very long time, but I had never even seen film of him pitching.

Musings (or ranting-and-ravings, if you prefer) of an old fan:
Because I was a clueless kid back in those long-ago days who didn't know you could find out who was going to be pitching simply by reading the newspaper on gameday I wouldn't know who'd be taking the mound until I got to Yankee Stadium. Always hoped it would be Whitey Ford. Saw all the Yankee pitchers at one time or another but it still seems like Schantz or Bob Turley pitched most every game I went to. It cracked me up to hear Mel Allen refer to him a couple of times as Little Bobby Schantz. Hadn't thought about that in 50 years but that's what he was known by, never just Bobby Schantz, always Little Bobby Schantz. The wife and I started goofing with it while we were watching the game, intoning in our best Mel Allen twang Little Bobby Turley (who was as big as a truck), Little Bobby Richardson, Little Bobby Clemente, Little Bobby Skinner. And after that annoying color crawling scroll at the bottom of the b&w screen "updated" us for the hundredth time, Little Bobby Feller. Might have had to be there, I guess.

[mr2686]

I just think there were so many little things that could have happened to change the outcome of the game....If the bad hop doesn't hit Kubek in the throat, If Mantle get's tagged going back to first, if Long get's thrown out going to 3rd and Clemente doesn't bobble the ball (and what the heck was Long doing out on the bases anyway? He was a pinch hitter that wasn't going in for defense. Why wait till he gets to 3rd to pinch run McDougald), if Smith is called out on strikes, if Stengel starts Ford or brings him in for relief...it goes on and on. But I guess that's what makes baseball so much fun and why we are debating a game that took place 50 years ago...and why I collect the 1960 Pirates autographs.

[insidethewrapper]

I thought DeMaestri replaced Kubek at SS. Did Boyer go to SS ?

[tedzan]

Mike (mr2686) mentioned...." Both Coates and Yogi will be at the 61 reunion in January....wonder if they'll talk to each other? "
It will be interesting to find out if Yogi and Coates are talking to each again. Where is this 1962 Reunion occurring ?

Dan B.

I saw Bobby Shantz pitch for the A's and the Yankees. He was a spunky sidearming southpaw who gave the Yankees a tough
time back in the early 1950's. Also, he was one of the best fielding pitchers in his era. And, a great guy at BB cards shows.

One smart thing Stengel did early in that 7th game was bring in Shantz. Shantz gave the Yankees 5 good innings of relief.


TED Z

[mr2686]

DeMaestri came in for Kubek and was then pinch hit for by Long. Long was pinch run for by McDougald who then went to 3B as Boyer moved to SS.

As for the 61 reunion, MAB-Celebrity is having a multi yankee reunion show in Jan in NJ...61, 81 and 86 teams. Looks like 11 from 61 have confirmed...including Coates.
I mentioned before that Richardson (no relation) seemed to soften a bit on Coates when he saw the film. I recorded the show and FF to that part and before he watched it he was clinching his fists and saying Coates didn't cover first and you'd think that was practiced enough in spring training...afterwards he almost looked shocked when he saw the tape. Kinda like "you mean the world isn't flat" kinda shocked! I think they just said it enough times that it became fact.