1960 Pirates v. Yanks Game 7 MLB Network 8pm

[mr2686]

Call it a hunch, but I'm betting on the Pirates

[tedzan]

towards Yankee pitcher Jim Coates.

Coates replaced Shantz in the bottom of the 8th inning and was one out away from ending the inning. Then, a lapse by Coates allowed
the Pirates to keep their inning alive. After stopping Roberto Clemente's ground ball, 1st baseman Skowron turned and prepared to throw
to Coates covering 1st base, but Coates, wasn't there since he stopped midway to 1st base. Skowron was forced to hold onto the ball,
and Virdon scored to cut the Yankee lead to 7–6. Hal Smith followed with a 3-run home run to give the Pirates a 9–7 lead. Ralph Terry
relieved Coates and got the last out.

I read that Berra has never forgiven Coates for not being at 1st base for that crucial play. Yogi blames Coates for the 1960 W.S. loss. Not
Mazeroski....who Berra (in Left Field) in the 9th inning watched Maz's HR sail over him into the stands.

Check it out when you watch this 7th game.


TED Z

[mr2686]

Wow...never heard that about Yogi. What I have heard was that most players, including Mantle and Ford, blamed Stengel for not pitching Ford 3 times in the series. That decision, and the loss of course, were the final straw that spelled the end for Stengel.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by tedzan

towards Yankee pitcher Jim Coates.

Coates replaced Shantz in the bottom of the 8th inning and was one out away from ending the inning. Then, a lapse by Coates allowed
the Pirates to keep their inning alive. After stopping Roberto Clemente's ground ball, 1st baseman Skowron turned and prepared to throw
to Coates covering 1st base, but Coates, wasn't there since he stopped midway to 1st base. Skowron was forced to hold onto the ball,
and Virdon scored to cut the Yankee lead to 7–6. Hal Smith followed with a 3-run home run to give the Pirates a 9–7 lead. Ralph Terry
relieved Coates and got the last out.

I read that Berra has never forgiven Coates for not being at 1st base for that crucial play. Yogi blames Coates for the 1960 W.S. loss. Not
Mazeroski....who Berra (in Left Field) in the 9th inning watched Maz's HR sail over him into the stands.

Check it out when you watch this 7th game.


TED Z

Looked to me like there was no way Coates could have gotten Clemente out..he also didn't appear to have stopped midway between the mound and first. Coates is getting a raw deal.

[Robextend]

How did Mantle get back to 1B?!?!?!? Wow, that should have been a game ending DP.

Edited to add: I agree that Mantle should have got in a rundown...we got lucky there!

[ls7plus]

I know I'm a little late chiming in with this one, but I thought it was such a thrill to see Mantle, Berra, Maris and Clemente (didn't remember that Clemente literally seemed to step in the bucket, but still kept his head and hands back--what a hitter!) in action again (I used to like the Yankees when I was a kid, in the pre-Steinbrenner era, and was a huge Mantle and Maris fan). Nice to see Mickey get three hits and two ribbies, even in the loss. Seems the Pirates were a team of destiny, based on Virdon's comments in the course of the telecast, and the manner in which the tide turned in Pittsburgh's favor in this one!
Was also really impressed to hear that Mantle had hit one out earlier in the series over the 436-foot marker to the opposite field!!! 450-460 feet to the opposite field??? My God, what a monster he was!!!

[GoldenAge50s]

Clemente at bat reminded me of Vlad Guerrero.

[Cy2009]

Originally Posted by tedzan

towards Yankee pitcher Jim Coates.

Coates replaced Shantz in the bottom of the 8th inning and was one out away from ending the inning. Then, a lapse by Coates allowed
the Pirates to keep their inning alive. After stopping Roberto Clemente's ground ball, 1st baseman Skowron turned and prepared to throw
to Coates covering 1st base, but Coates, wasn't there since he stopped midway to 1st base. Skowron was forced to hold onto the ball,
and Virdon scored to cut the Yankee lead to 7–6. Hal Smith followed with a 3-run home run to give the Pirates a 9–7 lead. Ralph Terry
relieved Coates and got the last out.

I read that Berra has never forgiven Coates for not being at 1st base for that crucial play. Yogi blames Coates for the 1960 W.S. loss. Not
Mazeroski....who Berra (in Left Field) in the 9th inning watched Maz's HR sail over him into the stands.

Check it out when you watch this 7th game.


TED Z

Ted,

I don't think Coates beats Clemente to the bag even if he did go straight to it. Clemente was there before Skowron could even toss it.

Cy

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Cy2009

Ted,

I don't think Coates beats Clemente to the bag even if he did go straight to it. Clemente was there before Skowron could even toss it.

Cy

Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him (I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology.

[GoldenAge50s]

Coates was going for the ball & veered off to 1st base--no way was he going to get there in time even if he takes a straight line--Clemente beats the play!

Blame the terrible Forbes infield for the loss, not Coates.

Bobby Schantz was great in relief, but why did he bat in the 8th w/ runners on 2nd & 3rd? A pinch hit there breaks the game wide open & Smith's homer means little---the comeback most likely never happens ! He had already gone 5 plus innings of 1 or 2 hit shutout ball!

[Kawika]

I was able to catch the last three innings this afternoon. What a pleasure it was to watch a ballgame just like I used to a half-century ago, glorious black-and-white, Mel Allen at the mike, Moose Skowron and Harvey Haddix in the glory of their times, no thundersticks or exploding scoreboards just the murmur of the crowd, no Tim McCarver. (I have a feeling that your average sportsfan of today without the old time connection would be bored silly by this broadcast). Only thing missing was the Ballantine Beer ads. Boy, how did we ever live without instant replay in those prehistoric times! What was particularly delightful was Bob Costas' panel of old players and their comments. I know that the game is available on DVD but do any of you out in Net54 Land know if the show as broadcasted today with the between-the-innings conversations with Dick Groat, Bobby Richardson etc plus the great locker room interviews (gotta love Gino Cimoli) would be included on the DVD? A heavenward tip of the cap to Bing Crosby for making it all possible.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him
(I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will
make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology. "

I first heard this story from Clete Boyer, who was there on the field playing 3rd base (and in the 8th inning SS) in that 7th game.

Clete was at my table at the Ft. Washington show back in the late 1990's sorting thru my Bowman BB cards. I first didn't realize who he was,
but he was very friendly and we were talking Baseball for about 40 minutes. The subject of Yankees World Series games came up and that is
when he told me this (and I'm paraphrasing it)...."at Yankees gatherings, as friendly as Yogi is, he will not speak with Jim Coates. Yogi holds a
grudge towards Coates, since he blames Coates for the loss of that 7th game by not covering 1st base to get the throw from Bill Skowron. "

During our conversation, Clete gave me his address in order to send him more Bowman cards, and that is when I first realized who he was. Clete
was an autograph guest at the Philly show that day.

Furthermore, when I recently visited Yogi Berra's Museum (in Montclair, NJ), I repeated this story to the two gentlemen working at the museum
and they confirmed Yogi's feelings toward Coates.


Look, Yogi was in Left Field that day....did he get a good view of Coates' lapse in getting to 1st base ?
I certainly don't know. However, Boyer was close by in the infield at SS when this occurred. He, too, faults Coates for hesitating to get to 1st
base in time.

Hey guys, I trust Clete's take on this scenario.....he had a bird's-eye view of this event.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I also feel it was an absolute joy to watch that game last night. It is amazing that a game of such magnitude, with 19 runs scoring and all manner of turning points, was played in 2 hours and 36 minutes. A game like that today would be passing the four hour mark and no matter how exciting would feel interminable. Everything about that broadcast was good, from the crisp play, the spare broadcasting, the absence of endless messages across the screen, even the lack of instant replay. Today a guy hits a grounder to shortstop and we have to watch it again from six different angles.

When I was a kid growing up all the other kids always talked about the ground ball that hit Tony Kubek in the throat, and I had never seen it. Last night was the first time, and it was a really wicked hop. And I always wondered about Mantle's dive back to first, and it sure was a split second play. It was just a game for the ages.

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times.

And I too noticed around the sixth inning or so that nobody seemed to have struck out. Sure enough, the game went nine innings without even one strikeout. Simply an mazing game of baseball.

[mr2686]

Regarding Coates, after seeing the game last night I'd have to agree that he's getting a raw deal. He had to veer off to get to 1st after it was obvious he couldn't get to the ball and Moose could. I think this is one of those things where the players remember it one way, and since the film was lost for 50 years, they haven't seen any replays and it's just become a fact now.
Even Bobby Richardson seemed to soften after seeing the film.
Yogi still swears that Jackie Robinson was out when stealing home in the WS, but new replays from different angles support the safe call, so I doubt anyone can convince him otherwise about Coates.
Both Coates and Yogi will be at the 61 reunion in January....wonder if they'll talk to each other?
Anyway, I thought the whole presentation of the Game last night and the discussions between innings was really good, and I really enjoyed it.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Did anyone notice that when Bob Prince interviewed nearly every player after the game, he never asked Roberto Clemente to come forward? I'm sure they were afraid to have an hispanic player who spoke broken English come to the microphone. It was a sign of the times. .

Of course, I don't know exactly what went into the selection process for tv interviews in the clubhouse that afternoon. But I'd like to say that it's not clear to me that Bob Prince was guilty of any racism or bias in his role as an interviewer that day. I was an infant in 1960 and can't speak to how Prince related to Clemente that year. But I listened to Prince broadcast just about every game from the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies, and he was a very great admirer of Clemente, and I know for a fact that Clemente felt very warmly toward Prince. Maybe the people at NBC who produced the post-game interviews decided who got to jump up on the table with Prince to talk "coast to coast." Maybe they didn't want to hear Roberto speak with his accent. But except for the one time that Prince reached down and pulled Hal Smith up to the table to talk with him, Bob Prince just stood there and spoke with whomever happened to hop up and say hi. Besides, I think there were a few other principals who didn't get an interview: Stuart, maybe Friend and Nelson and surely Mizell. And what about Murtaugh?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your......
" Exactly...I had never heard about this until Ted's post so I don't know how prevalent the feeling is that Coates should have gotten him
(I see that part of Ted's post is straight from wikipedia), and I wonder if now that everyone has actually seen the play that history will
make a correction, and Yogi will make an apology. "

I first heard this story from Clete Boyer, who was there on the field playing 3rd base (and in the 8th inning SS) in that 7th game.

Clete was at my table at the Ft. Washington show back in the late 1990's sorting thru my Bowman BB cards. I first didn't realize who he was,
but he was very friendly and we were talking Baseball for about 40 minutes. The subject of Yankees World Series games came up and that is
when he told me this (and I'm paraphrasing it)...."at Yankees gatherings, as friendly as Yogi is, he will not speak with Jim Coates. Yogi holds a
grudge towards Coates, since he blames Coates for the loss of that 7th game by not covering 1st base to get the throw from Bill Skowron. "

During our conversation, Clete gave me his address in order to send him more Bowman cards, and that is when I first realized who he was. Clete
was an autograph guest at the Philly show that day.

Furthermore, when I recently visited Yogi Berra's Museum (in Montclair, NJ), I repeated this story to the two gentlemen working at the museum
and they confirmed Yogi's feelings toward Coates.


Look, Yogi was in Left Field that day....did he get a good view of Coates' lapse in getting to 1st base ?
I certainly don't know. However, Boyer was close by in the infield at SS when this occurred. He, too, faults Coates for hesitating to get to 1st
base in time.

Hey guys, I trust Clete's take on this scenario.....he had a bird's-eye view of this event.


TED Z

Yogi usually agreed with Casey Stengel, but this was one of the times when Yogi was critical of Casey. First, he thought Casey should have started Whitey
Ford in game 7.
Secondly, given the situation in the 8th inning, Yogi questioned Casey's decision to replace Bobby Shantz with Jim Coates. Yogi thought a better choice of
relievers would have been Louis Arroyo, or even Ryan Duren.

Many years later at an Old Timer's event (1972), Casey admitted to Ryan Duren...."You know the biggest mistake I made in the 1960 World Series ?
I should have brought you in, in the 8th inning"......instead of Jim Coates.


Mike (mr2686)

I think, given some of the above posted feelings, Yogi was just upset with Casey's decision in that situation, and found blame with Coates. My understanding
is that Yogi took this loss very hard.

Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Yogi and Coates will talk to each other at the 1961 reunion in January ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Bob Costas asked Bobby Richardson why Casey didn't start Ford three times, or why he didn't bring Ford into the 7th game in relief, and you could see that it rankles Richardson to this day. It sounds like the players lost faith in the 70 year old Stengel's ability to manage the team smartly.

And Richardson also mentioned that Coates first went after the ball, then when he saw he couldn't reach it, sprinted to first. It certainly looked like he was hustling, but Clemente simply beat him to the bag.