Frank Chance - HOF Material?

[bcbgcbrcb]

IMHO not the most questionable choice, especially considering his managerial record, but surely not one of the upper-echelon guys.

[Matt]

I was under the (perhaps erroneous) impression that the criterion for Hall of Fame entry were not purely statistical, but a player's notoriety entered into it as well. I believe this is implied by calling it the "Hall of Fame" and not the "Hall of Great." While we can certainly agree that certain enshrined players do not merit inclusion for either reason, I believe Chance's combination of being a well known star player/manager and having solid numbers, justifies his place.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Matt

I was under the (perhaps erroneous) impression that the criterion for Hall of Fame entry were not purely statistical, but a player's notoriety entered into it as well. I believe this is implied by calling it the "Hall of Fame" and not the "Hall of Great." While we can certainly agree that certain enshrined players do not merit inclusion for either reason, I believe Chance's combination of being a well known star player/manager and having solid numbers, justifies his place.

I hope you've read The Politics of Glory (or Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?) by Bill James. For your sake, I really hope you've read it.

[mybuddyinc]

Tinker - Evers - Chance were, of course, voted in as "one" entry do to poem.*
If on individual records, IMO:

Chance -- yes (player/manager)
Evers -- yes (no Eddie Collins, but still top 2nd)
Tinker -- no (solid, but no)



* Edit to add I have no problem with the "poen" induction, and agree with Matt's "notable" point ..............

I also, for that same reason, agree Stallone should be in Boxing HOF.
As well as Mr. Magoo in the Rutgers HOF (which he is).

[bigtrain]

IMHO all three could have been left out of the HOF and were elected largely based on the fame that came to them through the poem. Chance was by far the best choice of the three, managerial career, .296 ba, leadership, etc. Tinker and Evers .260 to .270 hitters, marginal HOFers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Gray Ink Batting - 39 (626), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 34 (544), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 24 (533), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 1 (728), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 39 (626), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 24 (685), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 20 (746), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[E93]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 1 (728), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 39 (626), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 24 (685), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 20 (746), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Exsqueeze me??? Can you explain this for the ignorant. Thanks.
JimB

[Brian Van Horn]

Of the three, I would say that Chance is most deserving especially given his management skills and, in particular, the fielding schemes he designed against opponents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by E93

Exsqueeze me??? Can you explain this for the ignorant. Thanks.
JimB

Jim, sure. If you go to baseballreference.com, for each player, they have a number of different statistical measures which I believe are based on measures derived by Bill James. They are explained in detail on the site, but generally they seek to compare players (adjusted for era) and to show where a player stands in comparison to HOFers. The numbers in parentheses are where the player ranks all-time for that particular measure, and the numbers to the right are the numbers for the average HOFer. Here is a link: http://www.baseball-reference.com/ab...html#black_ink

So, for example, taking this one line from Tinker. Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 24 (685), Likely HOFer ≈ 100. Tinker's score on this measure is 24. This ranks him #685 all-time. A Hall of Famer would be expected to have a score of at least 100.

Or this line. Black Ink Batting - 1 (728), Average HOFer ≈ 27. Tinker's score on this measure is 1. This ranks him #728 all-time. The average HOFer has a score of 27.

Obviously these are imperfect measures, and tend to underemphasize fielding and can't capture intangibles, but the lists they generate do pretty consistently reflect who a consensus would view as the all-time greats.

[jtschantz]

That is a pretty interesting web site that ranks the players...I scanned through it pretty fast, but I think Deacon Phillippe is the highest rated pitcher from the T206 set that is not in the HOF. Looks like Bill Dahlen is the higest batter ranked that is not in the Hall.