Soaking E Series

[barrysloate]

Jeff- my second example, where the cards were submitted and came back with high grades, could be interpreted by some as deception. I don't feel that way but I understand why it would bother people. For the record, I've never soaked any cards myself, not sent them to a conservator to be soaked. Not even once.

[Tim Kindler]

This soaking thing is really something I've never really thought about before. I never thought about doing it to a card that I have owned because if I tried , I would screw something up and ruin my card! When buying, I never really have thought about a card if it was soaked or not. I have thought about other types of alterations when buying such as trimming, ironing out creases, etc., but soaking would be way down on my worry list of alterations; like I said I never really thought about it before until this thread. That being said, I guess I would still consider it an alteration...BUT IF I FOUND OUT ONE OF MY CARDS WAS SOAKED, I WOULDN'T CONSIDER IT ANY BIG DEAL. REALLY I DON"T CARE MUCH. I just wouldn't do it that's all.

Let me explain why I think soaking is altering. I look at cards as historical objects. For example, many of you know I love E98s. When I get an E98 that is 100 years old, I consider anything that might be on it- candy stains, writing (For example, someone put l.f., say in period ink, on the back of a card to signify the player's position), old tape, glue, scrapbook residue, etc.- to be just part of the history of that card. To me, these so called "alterations" to the origional card happened before cards were thought to be "collector's items". Anything done to remove these things from the card's history to me is alteration. But again, removing something as insignificant as scrapbook residue is really no big deal to me. I don't have a problem with this type of alteration, though to me its still alteration. I do have a problem with trimming, rebacking, recoloring, etc. because you are trying to put something back- sharp corners, color, backing, etc.- that was lost throughout the years.

By the way, really neat information by sb1 on the clay content of paper. I never knew anything about that sort of stuff. I just know that E98s can flake something awful!

Tim Kindler
E98 Guy

[FrankWakefield]

If I soaked a bunch of T206s off of a scrapbook page, sent them to be graded, and they came back 7's, then I'd have no qualms about it. I don't doubt that the other 7's that had been graded were from scrapbooks; at least most of them were.

Soaking doesn't alter the card. The card remains the same. The dirt, paste, scrapbook paper, tobacco bits, they aren't altered either, they're merely safely disengaged from the card.

When I buy or trade for a T206 I don't ask if it had been soaked. Once I get the card if it looks like it needs soaking then eventually I get around to doing that, most of the time. If I were to ask it would only be to see if the seller/trader had already tried soaking so I could avoid wasting time doing it. Ideally, I'd be happy if they'd already soaked off the dirt and all. Now I'm not advocating bleaching, spooning, stretching nor trimming. This entire matter (ie collectors thinking soaking a T206 is wrong) remains unbelievable to me... collectors who were collecting in the 50s and 60s and 70s soaked old tobacco cards without batting an eye. But of course there weren't slabs back then, a fellow could hold his card, could touch it, and see and feel what he had.

[rarerookies]

Anything done to a card that makes it more appealing is in my opinion altering the card. You don't touch up the Mona Lisa and you don't touch and original card with 100 years of dirt, tobacco, etc.

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

If I soaked a bunch of T206s off of a scrapbook page, sent them to be graded, and they came back 7's, then I'd have no qualms about it. I don't doubt that the other 7's that had been graded were from scrapbooks; at least most of them were.

Soaking doesn't alter the card. The card remains the same. The dirt, paste, scrapbook paper, tobacco bits, they aren't altered either, they're merely safely disengaged from the card.

When I buy or trade for a T206 I don't ask if it had been soaked. Once I get the card if it looks like it needs soaking then eventually I get around to doing that, most of the time. If I were to ask it would only be to see if the seller/trader had already tried soaking so I could avoid wasting time doing it. Ideally, I'd be happy if they'd already soaked off the dirt and all. Now I'm not advocating bleaching, spooning, stretching nor trimming. This entire matter (ie collectors thinking soaking a T206 is wrong) remains unbelievable to me... collectors who were collecting in the 50s and 60s and 70s soaked old tobacco cards without batting an eye. But of course there weren't slabs back then, a fellow could hold his card, could touch it, and see and feel what he had.

[Vol]

Originally Posted by rarerookies

Anything done to a card that makes it more appealing is in my opinion altering the card. You don't touch up the Mona Lisa and you don't touch and original card with 100 years of dirt, tobacco, etc.

Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.

[rarerookies]

so is that restoring it or altering?

Originally Posted by VOLnVEGAS

Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.

[rarerookies]

besides, everyone knows that the real mona lisa was destroyed along with the holy grail in indiana jones and the last crusade

Originally Posted by VOLnVEGAS

Not that it matters, but they do touch the Mona Lisa.

[fkw]

The card was not issued with dirt on it...

I have on many occasions used a damp tissue to remove dirt from the surface of a card... the same thing they do to old paintings, they remove the grime to bring out the original color. Its not altering the card or painting, its cleaning it and leaves no residue.

But I wouldnt soak the whole card to remove a stain... its a bit risky, and some stains will actually spread more.
I would only soak a card completely if it were glued into a scrapbook..... to remove the back paper and as much of the glue as possible.
To me the risk of a little water damage is much nicer than a huge paper pull from "dry pulling" a card from a scrapbook. If a grader cant tell there was water used, its all good by me. Even if they detect a water stain, they only downgrade, they dont reject.
Heck many Cuban cards have been rained on and have mildew stains from the humidity too. Water is natural, but can damage too.

Altering = trimming a piece off, recoloring a bad spot or print defect, rebuilding corners, filling in pinholes, or gluing rips or a paper pulls back down, rebacking (ie N172s), or chemical bleaching out stains (ie E145's), etc.