T-206 Honus Wagner

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

If the T206 Wagner card wasn't so famous, then all of the Wagner cards would trade at lower levels. He trades at a premium because whenever one of his cards sell, it hits the media. Many people pay a premium simply to own one. I would speculate that his value would be less than the Cobb, and somewhere around the next lower tier of Hof'ers.

Wow - I can't believe someone said this and that several other people seem to agree with it.

Does anyone remember the inaugural vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame? Yeah, the one where this Wagner character got the second most votes of any player in the entire history of baseball (and the same number of votes as Babe Ruth, who had recently finished rewriting the baseball record books).

Any suggestion that Wagner was a second-tier Hall of Famer (or for that matter anything but one of the very greatest players of all time) is preposterous to me.

Now, let's leave the baseball world and go to the card-collecting world. Forget about the T-206 Wagner for a second...it is WAY tougher to get a Wagner card than a Cobb card. Wagner appears primarily in candy sets with much lower populations than the tobacco sets where Cobb is a huge presence. My guess (I have never done the math on this, but it would be worth doing) is that the total number of specimens of Wagner cards out there in the world would be about 1/3 or less (probably less) than the number of Cobb cards out there.

I don't think Wagner cards are a bit overpriced. And it has nothing at all to do with T-206. It has everything to do with Wagner being one of the very greatest ballplayers in history, a tough card subject for such a great and beloved player...and a fine human being to boot.

Cheers,
Blair

[3-2-count]

If the T206 Wagner survived this latest economic tumble we've been in, (which it has) it can survive anything and has proved it's a main stay in our hobby. As Jim B stated
it's simply a part of American mythology/history. In regards to what card would have taken it's place if not for it's rarity. I would have to lean towards the T206 Plank.

[e107collector]

Very interesting points so far.

Some have stated that the BN Ruth maybe too rare and unknown to be a Holy Grail. Wouldn't the T210 Jackson fall into the same category? I believe only 10-12 examples exist of each one.

Had Wagner not pulled his card, I would more than likely already have one in my collection. Ahh to dream....

Tony

[T206Collector]

I think you have to seriously consider the impact of Wagner on collecting in general over the past 100 years. So many people got into card collecting because of the value component, which has always been accentuated by the Wagner card and its improbable value going back at least to the 1930s. My guess is we'd have a very very different looking hobby without the history and grandeur behind it...

It's like asking who would have been the best player if Ruth never played. The answer is, maybe we would have stopped watching baseball after 1919 without him.

[vintagecpa]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Wow - I can't believe someone said this and that several other people seem to agree with it.

Does anyone remember the inaugural vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame? Yeah, the one where this Wagner character got the second most votes of any player in the entire history of baseball (and the same number of votes as Babe Ruth, who had recently finished rewriting the baseball record books).

I'm not saying that Wagner cards would all-of-a-sudden be selling for $100. If there were as many Wagner T206's available as Cobb T206's, there is no question Cobb is a bigger name to the general public and would sell at a higher level under the proposed scenario.

Honus Wagner simply wouldn't be a household name if it wasn't for the T206 media coverage. I believe Wagner would fall into this category similar category of a Matthewson or Johnson. My wife has heard of Cobb, but not Matthewson or Johnson. Not a large sample-size, but all I had available. I would speculate that a $1000 Wagner card at today's market would maybe sell for $700 if there were plenty of T206's available. Obviously this would change if his card was short-printed with certain sets.

[dstraate]

Wagner was a heck of a player, so was the Babe. In this case though, the status is derived from it's issue. I feel the T206 Wagner is "the holy grail" specifically because its the most famous card in the most famous set.

It was interesting to hear from guy who surveyed his wife about names she'd heard of (I try that all the time to justify my purchases turns out baseball isn't everybody's national pastime)

You could try to ask the average sports enthusiast (non collectors of course) to name the vintage sets they've heard of. You'd probably hear about T206 and 52 Topps. Perhaps, to a lesser extent Goudey.

Therefore, in absence of Wagner, your grails are Plank, Lajoie, and Mantle. Secondary criteria being a well known HOFer with a back story as to why the card is difficult. Primary criteria being a "Big 3" issue.

[M's_Fan]

There is a poll on the SGC website asking what the hobby's "marquee" card is besides the T206 Wagner. The overwhelming choice was the 1952 Topps Mantle, with 63.8% of the vote. The BN Ruth and the T210 Jackson didn't even come close with 10% of the vote, the M101-5 Ruth got only 6%, and the 34 Lajoie got only 5%.

Like it or not, its pretty clear that the 1952 Topps Mantle is the Vice-President of the baseball card top-dogs.

It definitely doesn't seem that Plank had quite the top tier status as Wagner to generate the same amount of buzz, nor is the dropped printer plate story quite as interesting as the Wagner T206 story. But the Plank definitely would be worth more if the Wagner was common place.

[DixieBaseball]

I concur that the Wagner and then Mantle would be 1st and 2nd in popularity as that is what these cards are... Popular. They are both iconic and mean a lot to the hobby's big picture, but certainly are too overhyped and other quality issues not hyped enough.

[barrysloate]

Because the T206 set has always been popular, the Wagner has had the status it has even as far back as the 1930's and 40's. None of the other cards we consider rarities today- N172 Anson, Four Base Hits Kelly, Baltimore News Ruth, T210 Jackson, etc.- were even on the radar back then.

As a result, many of the buyers of a Wagner in the last twenty years very well may have heard stories about it in their childhood. So it's kind of been one of those cards that has always been out there as a "must have" item.

Again, it's supply AND demand. There may be 70 of them known but there are way more than 70 people who would love to own one. So I find it a little hard to call it overrated. It is what it is.

[steve B]

I think most of us that think of the Wagner as overrated are thinking overrated as a rarity. It's not really rare. Its rarity is constantly overstated, usually it's claimed to be the "rarest card".

It's certainly not overrated as the pop culture icon that represents the entire hobby.

The 52 Mantle is in the same category, being a double print hasn't hurt it at all. As a rarity it doesn't even beat other 52 high numbers, and it's not his rookie card as is often reported. (The whole "rookie card" defenition being weakened by becketts defenition, another whole thread in itself)

But each is a card of a great player from the set of the era. And each is fairly tough and has a great story to make it more popular still. All those sort of things add up to make for an expensive item in any hobby. Upside down airplane stamp, 1913 liberty nickel, you get the idea (The 1913 nickel is a poor example, actually being quite rare, but without the story to make it valid it would be just another backdoored pattern)

Someone else made the point that without the Wagner the entire hobby would be very different. I think that's a very important point, I'm a bit involved with a couple other hobbies that are a bit less mainstream. In one, there's no catalog, no real idea of what's out there, and very little money involved. In another, the hobby was literaly an underground hobby for a long time. Some oldtimers still worry about the FBI busting them. And in that one, a common item may have 75-100 copies available. Yeah, the common stuff is as scarce numerically as the Wagner. And many of those things sell for $50, maybe up to 200. There's some truly rare stuff, one to three copies known, and the biggest price is maybe 15K with most of it under 5000.

Between supply and demand, demand wins big every time.


Steve B

[e107collector]

Does anyone know if Honus Wagner had his own brand name tobacco? I know he endorse Hans Wagner cigars, but I'm not sure about tobacco.

If so, would it had been possible to get a Honus Wagner T-206 with a Wagner tobacco back?

Happy Thanksgiving!

Tony