Grading discussion- Revolutionizing :) the hobby...

[Leon]

Matt,
How many times do we see a 19th century (shadow) of a player, with a high grade, and shake our heads? I understand that folks should buy the card and not the holder but doesn't it diminish the effectiveness of grading when we see a piece of cardboard with what looks like a stain on it, and it's really the player? I don't know the answer but think it's a darned good discussion to have.

[Robextend]

I don't collect OJs, but I always marvel at them when they are posted on the B/S/T or other appropriate threads because they are stunning cards. With that said, I don't understand how a card that is faded to the point where you can barely tell who it is can receive 3's and 4's from a TPG.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Leon

Matt,
How many times do we see a 19th century (shadow) of a player, with a high grade, and shake our heads? I understand that folks should buy the card and not the holder but doesn't it diminish the effectiveness of grading when we see a piece of cardboard with what looks like a stain on it, and it's really the player? I don't know the answer but think it's a darned good discussion to have.

Absolutely a good discussion to have. If the TPGs want to downgrade cards for being washed out, just as they do for having a crease I don't object in principle, so long as they do so for all issues equally. Practically, I think there might be two problems with it. One is it would render all grades given up to now suspect as the grading standard would be changing - it would be like the PSA half point adoption on steroids, as there your PSA 4 might be a 4.5, but there's no way it would become a 1. The second is that fading is something that can occur even once the card is slabbed, which means a card slabbed as a 7 might technically be a 3 next week if left out in the sun, though still residing in a 7 slab.
Also, as far as shaking our heads when seeing a faded card graded as a 3, IMO that's because there is a subtle mistake people are making that the grade translates into the value of the card - that two cards of the same player, one being graded a 2 and one a 4, there 4 should be worth more. As I explained above, I don't believe grading to be the only factor in determining a cards desirability, so I don't have an issue with a non-faded 2 being worth more then a faded 4.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Matt

The second is that fading is something that can occur even once the card is slabbed, which means a card slabbed as a 7 might technically be a 3 next week if left out in the sun, though still residing in a 7 slab.

That is a good point I failed to take into account in my post.

[thekingofclout]

Now, I'm certainly not a card guy, but it occurred to me that with OJ's and like cards, which are basically TYPE 1 photos, maybe they should only be authenticated and skip the grading all together.

I would think that true market value would then show it's purest form...

[barrysloate]

We've had this discussion many times on the board, and the overwhelming opinion about blank backed cards, specifically Old Judges, is that none of the grading services understand how to grade them. There should be a penalty for back damage, even on a blank backed card, but it should account for only a small part of the total grade. The single most important factor on an Old Judge is the photo quality, and I don't believe this is given any consideration whatsoever in determining the final grade.

A grading company that would give bonus points for strong photo contrast, and a penalty for light photos, would be hugely popular among OJ collectors. However, if your question is could a new grading service emerge and succeed if they were willing to consider this, I would say it would be a very long shot. I think the best business model for a new emerging grading company would be to get the grade right every time- period. I know this is theoretically impossible but that should be the company's goal. I know a couple of new grading companies have emerged recently but they do nothing more than what the established companies do, only they probably do it worse. If a new company emerged that could do a much better job with both grading accurately and with detecting altered cards, I think it would have a pretty good chance of succeeding. It would be an uphill climb but it could be done.

[oldjudge]

Not a major point to me one way or the other. I grade cards that I plan to dispose of (the exception rather than the rule) or those I want to protect. I think all the grading companies do a really poor job on blank backed photographic cards but there is no easy solution. Should SGC adopt a new procedure for Old Judges? If they do, what happens with all the cards that they have already graded? Collectors need to be knowledgeable and disassociate grade from value on Old Judges.
BTW, the grading companies also do a really poor job on 19th century cards without blank backs. I don't know how many Goodwin Champs that I have seen, with SCG60-80 grades, that have had some degree of paper loss on the backs. The grading companies easily see this loss on blank backed cards and reduce the grades accordingly. However, on cards with a lot of print on the backs, like Goodwin Champs, they often miss small patches of paper loss.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Should SGC adopt a new procedure for Old Judges? If they do, what happens with all the cards that they have already graded? Collectors need to be knowledgeable and disassociate grade from value on Old Judges.

I think that could easily be solved by identifying the scale used and prominently identifying the difference on their website.

SGC 84 - Photographic Grade Scale

But there still is the pesky problem of fading after slabbing. I think they should all be photographed upon grading and available on a website as a theft and alteration deterrent. Buyers can check....due diligence is key.

[barrysloate]

I don't think fading after slabbing is much of an issue at all. The cards are already 120 years old. How much are they going to fade over the few years they may be in collectors hands? And nobody is storing them under direct sunlight. Most will remain in safe deposit boxes or in desk drawers.

[oldjudge]

Barry is exactly right. There is a decay curve for albumen photos under artificial light. Most of the degradation of the photo occurs fairly early in the photo's life. Thereafter, the degradation is minimal.