My two cents: When a team moves, thats it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

Interesting point. The Browns and Ravens situation in Cleveland/Baltimore is even more complicated. Whose history is it, or is it just that - history?

Actually, that one is not complicated at all - as I recall, the city of Cleveland sued Art Modell when he moved the team in order to retain the rights of the team name and it's history.

[David W]

Well, you kinda got it right.

The original Senators moved to Minnesota after the 60 season and became the Twins for the 61 season.

The expansion Senators started in 61, and moved to Texas after the 71 season and played in 72 as the Texas Rangers.

So actually, this current version of the old Senators has not played in a World Series.

A Twins/Giants scenario would be what you are talking about.

[scooter729]

Well, the Rangers aren't descendants of THAT Senators team. The 1901-1960 Senators moved to Minnesota in 1961, and a NEW Washington Senators expansion team joined in 1961. THAT Senators team moved to Texas in 1972.

So this Rangers team isn't the same team as the Washington one that won in 1924. But the Twins should be able to make that claim.

[scooter729]

You beat me to the punch while I was typing, David!

[tbob]

I think it's not only sad but idiotic that the Twins don't recognize their heritage and honor Walter Johnson, Bucky Harris, Ed Delehanty, Heinie Manush, Goose Goslin, etc. They think the Twins just came on the scene in 1961 like Athena sprouting from the forehead of Zeus instead of recognizing the tradition and long suffering Washington Senators.

[Section103]

I just dont see it that way. I can see how you would if you lived in either of the two cities, but to pretend there is no continuity between the two is silly in my book. My wife runs her own business and changed offices this very past weekend. Its the same business, she didnt start a new one. She just changed locations. Granted, nobody's paying $30 a ticket to watch her be an insurance agent, but.... Organizations face different phases of life, just like families. You're still the same family if you move from NY to SF; you're still the same organization.

[bmarlowe1]

The Giants move to SF, whether an unfortunate event or not, does not change the fact that they have been a year to year continuously operating NL franchise since 1883. When they moved to SF they did not drop all their NY players and start anew. Matty did play for that franchise. Koufax is considered to have played for only one team - right?

I think the above cases are pretty clear. There are some that are more complicated, such as the Bal AL "move" to NY in 1903, or the 1899 "replacement" of most of the 1898 STL NL players with those of the 1898 Cle NL franchise.

[barrysloate]

M's Fan- how would you feel about the 1955 Brooklyn Dodgers and the 1959 Los Angeles team? Because they each won championships only four years apart, many of the same players were on both teams. Wouldn't that be enough of an historical connection?

[Anthony S.]

I like that the Giants ownership embraces their New York roots. I agree that saying the San Francisco Giants haven't won a series since 1954 is silly. The Giants haven't won it since 1954, the San Francisco Giants have never won it (though I'm currently in negotiations with God to change that).

[uffda51]

Sure, Athena sprouted from the head of Zeus, but that was long after Zeus changed his name (originally Bob Sacamano) and left Long Island for Greece.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I like that the Giants ownership embraces their New York roots.

If memory serves me right, NY Giants players whose numbers were retired, who played before players actually had numbers, have a big "NY" on the wall under their name in lieu of a number.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Matt

Actually, that one is not complicated at all - as I recall, the city of Cleveland sued Art Modell when he moved the team in order to retain the rights of the team name and it's history.

One could argue the lawsuit also makes it complicated.

[chaddurbin]

i see M's pov but don't agree with it. i'm a big dodgers fan and do consider brooklyn part of their history...having gone to prewar i'd stretch it even further to the bill dahlens and zach wheats and the superbas (super bas? superb as?...???)

[Rickyy]

Nope I still consider NY and SF Giants as the same.

[tbob]

Powder, I wasn't aware of that, still they don't really connect back to the Senators. This year all year long we had to listen to the 50 greatest Twins of all time and see such dynamic players as Michael Cuddyer instead of Goose Goslin, Brad Radke instead of Walter Johnson etc. I guess if they had called themselves the Minneapolis Senators there might not be this problem.
Yes, I get the 50 year anniversary thing and the new stadium etc. but they should have a huge pictoral banner or at least a statue of The Big Train somewhere at the stadium.

[kcohen]

I've always been curious as to why the Orioles never acknowledge nor recognize any aspect of their St. Louis Browns origins.

[Orioles1954]

I am a die-hard Orioles fan and could give two craps less about the St. Louis Browns. Different town, colors and name.

[TexasLeaguer]

There really is no right answer to this question because it is what it is. If you are a fan of one team and don't want to acknowledge its past from another city/incarnation then don't. It doesn't change the fact that certain parts of an organization did move from one place to another. It reminds me of the age old Ship of Theseus paradox. It really is a question of identity and ultimately semantics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Rickyy

Nope I still consider NY and SF Giants as the same.

so do i because they are

[PowderedH2O]

If it were up to me, the stats would be frozen with the old city, like they were with the Browns. For example, I live in Raleigh, NC and follow the Carolina Hurricanes. They were the Hartford/New England Whalers for many years before they came to NC. The record books all show our leaders as the combined leaders of Hurricanes and Whalers. But I didn't care about the team when they were in Hartford and neither did anyone else here. And I am sure that the Whalers fans in Hartford do not actively follow the Hurricanes leaders (except maybe to root against them). I'd just as soon just see our all-time leaders as being our guys from Carolina and the Hartford Whalers can just be that. Did the San Francisco fans follow Mel Ott? Did Oakland fans follow Connie Mack and Jimmie Foxx? Nope. Let the stats stay where they are. Just my opinion.

Sam