Philly Show this weekend....see you there ?

[tedzan]

I'll first preface my comments by saying that I have continuously set-up at the Philly Show since 1981. It has been a
great experience; and, especially with respect to all the great people I have become friends with in this hobby. First
and foremost, I'm a collector. I do like to "wheel & deal" vintage cardboard (sports and non-sports) and the 28 years
in Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and Reading have been tremendous.

The Valley Forge show started off slow 1 1/2 years ago. It was slowly improving in terms of attendance and sales, as
was evident in last March's show. However, the consensus of opinion is that last week's show was very disappointing.
Here are several external factors that I attribute this to (not listed in any order)......

Ebay
Numerous Auctions
Current Economic woes in this country
Baltimore National

The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a
good dealer--customer show. Furthermore, we have observed that at least 24 of the Hi-calibre, veteran vintage card
dealers (e.g., Dan McKee, Irv Lerner, Terry Knouse, Roger Neufeldt, Bill McAvoy, Ron Barrett, etc., etc.) are no longer
setting up at this show. The attrition rate of these quality dealers increases with each show. This bodes very poor for
the future success of this show.

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z

[Leon]

Scott and I are talking about setting up at Chantilly. The next show seems to be in about 2 weeks, which is kind of short notice, and too close to our current auction ending. I am looking forward to the one after that, and depending on some other things that go on, Scott or I (B and L Auctions) will probably set up at it. best regards

[bijoem]

Leon -

The Philly Show changed venue in recent years (multiple times) and also has changed hands (new ownership) around the time period you are mentioning.

I would guess it is possible things were lost in the shuffle when changing from one owner to another.

If the show is something that would be beneficial to you - - - I would give them a pass on what has happened in the past - - and call them up for a table.

I don't have much to compare it to - but I hear it is still the best show outside of the National.

[x2drich2000]

While I agree that the show has gone down hill when compared to years ago, I think Ted has hit a number of the key items that have contributed to that decline. I would also emphasis that those elements he has mentioned have contributed to the decline in all/most shows. With that in mind, I think you need to really consider the show in the context of the current environment. In that context, from a collector's standpoint, I still think the show is pretty good. You will be able to find stuff at this show you may not be able to find at most other shows. But as a collector, I don't think you can go to the show expecting to pay the same prices you would on Ebay. If you do, I think you will be very disappointed. Likewise, I think dealers need to understand that collector's have become accustomed to doing business outside of the show environment and as a result, dealers need to find something that makes attending the show more attractive than sitting at a computer.

With that said, I do have a few questions.

1) Without having ever attended Chantilly, what specific aspects of that show make it superior to the Valley Forge show? How do you think those aspects could be improved at Valley Forge?

2) Recognizing that several prominent dealers have left the Valley Forge show, and that the table costs seem to be a big factor, what would draw these dealers back to the show? Would simply lowering the table fees actually entice those dealers to return?

DJ

[danc]

Ted made great points. I have been going to the show, on and off since 1988 and it will never be like it once was, simply because a lot of traffic in the old days was surrounding the arrival of new product. And "reasonable fees" for autograph guests.

Today, neither is the case. It's not (for me) as much as an avenue to purchase, but simply a place to meet up with dealers and friends and make a minimal amount of purchasing, with the awareness that much of what I see I can obtain at better prices without the long travel and by sitting before my computer.

I know that if I go back in December, I will see the same mugs, the same cards and the only thing that will change is the case where I can view first hand items that will go up for auction the following week.

Counting down for deep dish in 2011.

DanC

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll first preface my comments by saying that I have continuously set-up at the Philly Show since 1981. It has been a
great experience; and, especially with respect to all the great people I have become friends with in this hobby. First
and foremost, I'm a collector. I do like to "wheel & deal" vintage cardboard (sports and non-sports) and the 28 years
in Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and Reading have been tremendous.

The Valley Forge show started off slow 1 1/2 years ago. It was slowly improving in terms of attendance and sales, as
was evident in last March's show. However, the consensus of opinion is that last week's show was very disappointing.
Here are several external factors that I attribute this to (not listed in any order)......

Ebay
Numerous Auctions
Current Economic woes in this country
Baltimore National

The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a
good dealer--customer show. Furthermore, we have observed that at least 24 of the Hi-calibre, veteran vintage card
dealers (e.g., Dan McKee, Irv Lerner, Terry Knouse, Roger Neufeldt, Bill McAvoy, Ron Barrett, etc., etc.) are no longer
setting up at this show. The attrition rate of these quality dealers increases with each show. This bodes very poor for
the future success of this show.

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z

I have to disagree on a few of Ted's points.

First Ebay isn't new, its been around 10+ years so I don't think it's impact is any different now as it was 2 or 5 years ago. Sure it has an impact but I don't think it varies from year to year.

Second, I think auctions to drain quality material from the sale floor. If you wanted to buy say an E90 or CJ Joe Jackson you would have to buy one in an auction as they are almost never for sale. I think this is the case with any "hot" higher end card.

Third, the Current Economic woes in this country have impacted everything but I have noticed things are better now then a year or six months ago, yet it seems this show was worse then the last.

Forth, Baltimore National, to me it had no impact. Perhaps people can't recover in a few months but perhaps it was more of an issue of the product and the prices rather then the national being close.

IMO there is a few simple things they can do to attract more customers and that is ADVERTISE!!! Plain and simple. They do not do anything locally on the sports radio station. It is said when I hear about the gun show and the home show but not the sports card show.

There were a lot of empty spaces on Friday which is a bad sign, however I did notice a few people that said they would never come back sitting there behind a table.

IMO the table price isn't the biggest problem it is a simple fact that many people come get a signature and leave. Plus the people they bring in to sign are so expensive that it drains a ton of cash out of the room. I think you would be better off with lower priced autographs rather they the hot new thing.

I had talked to both Paul and Sheryl about my concerns in the past but I never saw any change.

Leon- They did call me about doing the show when I didn't sign up so it might be worth another try.

James G

[tedzan]

I totally agree with you regarding the high-priced autograph situation as I have stated.....
"The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a good dealer--customer show."

$100 for Schilling's autog., pix, and Authentication is ridiculous. I like Schilling a lot, but that is a lot $$ for his signature. And, who knows what they
were charging for Andre Dawson, or Reggie Jackson ?


Regarding your......
"Forth, Baltimore National, to me it had no impact. Perhaps people can't recover in a few months but perhaps it was more of an issue of the product
and the prices rather then the national being close."

I have to differ with you. I can tell you for a fact that at least 12 of my long-time, regular Philly Show customers, who bought cards from me in Bal-
timore this Summer, didn't show up at the Valley Forge show last weekend. I heard similar stories from other dealers when we were comparing notes.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

I would still like to see this show succeed. I think the observations that turning Philly into an autograph show does nothing for the vintage crowd. If you're there for a 100 Shilling auto, then the odds of you shopping the booths and picking up T-cards or the like is probably fairly slim.
I will defer to Ted (hi Ted) about the impact of Baltimore. But having two shows reasonable close in time and place may just not be viable in our small world.

Some ideas:

-Twice a year, say March and October.
-Make Friday more attractive to the vintage consumer somehow. Either by making it a "preview" night or by working some deal with SGC and/or PSA for grading deals that night. Something, anything, even a few freebie autograph guests.
-Group the vintage dealers apart from the shiny stuff crowd - we'll find you and will appreciate not having to fight through the tables full of customers looking for 2010 Chrome XL Super SP 1 of 1 Refractor autographed game-used pine tar rag or whatever.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z

I was at the Baltimore National and thought it was very good.

Was it good enough for dealers to the extent that they might want to make it a permanent host?

[toppcat]

Baltimore is a very covenient city to fly or drive into (train too) and not too expensive by East Coast standards. Given the dearth/death of big regional shows, having two Nationals per year would make a lot of sense IMO and Bawlmer would not be a bad choice for one of them say every other year.

[Jewish-collector]

I was not able to attend this Philly show, but have been going to this show on a regular basis since the mid 1990's and have even attended a few shows back when it was in the old motor lodge in the 1980's.

It's too bad it has gone downhill. Outside of the National, this had been known as the very best show around. The fact that it moved initially to Reading before its new location didn't help. But, I think a more valid reason for the decline is that David Hunt is not really a show promoter.

A show has different purposes for the different types of collectors. Some collectors (like the guys on signingshotline.com) are mainly interested in the in-person autograph signings, so they don't care what dealers are setting up and what they are bringing to sell. There are, of course, the "shiny stuff" collectors, who don't care about the autograph signings nor vintage. The members of Net54 are, obviously, interested in vintage cards & memorabilia, so again it doesn't matter who is signing.

I think Mr. Hunt has decided that the autograph signings are more important, so therefore a lot of the national dealers have stopped setting up because a lot of collectors of vintage cards were not attending. There may be other reasons, but that's a large part for it. If they truly want it like the old days, they would have to put much less emphasis on the autograph signings to try to get the vintage dealers back. Perhaps they could try having a live Hunt auction one evening during that weekend.

Alan

[tinkereversandme]

Or maybe there is simply more interest in Home Shows and Gun Shows? Maybe there is a reason why the Baseball Card Show is dead, but other avenues who have collectible conventions strive. Just a lack of interest.

If you advertise more, maybe I will haveto pay $10 for admission and the dealer tables escalate once more and less dealers. I think people who are 'in the know', are well aware of the show as there are only a handful of show that have survived. People do use shows in different ways, but if you really want to buy stuff, your best bet will always be the Internet.

Plus, things changed since the hey-deys of the show. People really like to win stuff, not buy it outright. We have been trained to embrace the auction.

The dealers that seem to do best (from my observations) at these shows are the sellers that have 3200 count boxes and binders of raw singles and set builders have their checkmarked sheets out.

As far as autographs go, it's a massive joke the prices these shows ask for sports guests. The days of selling out tickets are long gone. I woud pay $50 for Willie Mays, but $300? I quit doing drugs in the early seventies. Late seventies maybe.

Regards,

Larry

[tedzan]

tinkereversandme

Regarding your......
"Plus, things changed since the hey-deys of the show. People really like to win stuff, not buy it outright. We have been trained to embrace the
auction."

This is unfortunately true for BB card shows.

There is no doubt about it, the myriad number of BB related Auctions are making a serious dent into the BB card shows. I guess I do not under-
stand why all these auctions are so popular with collectors, since these auctions operate with 10% bidding increments. Hey guys, only need 7
bids to DOUBLE the OPENING BID. And 14 bids will QUADRUPLE the OPENING BID.

Not for me....unless one of these Auction Houses reduces this ridiculous 10% increment policy, I aint bidding. Not to say, how absurd the "juice"
is on top of these exorbitant bidding numbers. What happened to the age old enjoyable practice of bargaining or bartering over BB cards to get
a reasonable deal at a live show ?

So, the shows will continue to suffer (or fail)......while, the realized prices at a given Auction will continue to be out-of-whack, relative to the
accepted value of a given BB card.

Where does it all end ?

Perhaps in time, the same way the Coin and Stamp markets have deterioated to in recent years.

Also,
Here in Pennsylvania, live shows are flourishing. The Home Shows and the Gun Shows are huge. In fact the five baseball card shows at Valley
Forge these past 1 1/2 years have shared the Convention Center with either one of those shows on all 5 occassions. The lines for those two
shows are unbelievably long. While the lines at this BB card show have been mediocre at best.


T-Rex TED

[Tony Gordon]

I agree that the selection of pre-war at card shows has decreased. I remember 20 years ago seeing large amounts of pre-war at local mall shows. Though, I can't say that card shows are dead or anywhere near death. I attend local shows every weekend and can occasionally find a nice deal on pre-war and I almost always find some nice deals on post-war. I do acknowledge that many shows here in the Midwest and across the country have died. However, I can still find a show within an hour-and-a-half drive from my house with enough vintage dealers and customers to have a good time every single weekend. Sounds to me that Philly-area vintage dealers/collectors need to organize an alternative to the Hunt show.