Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[goudeygold]

If you step back and think about it a minute, how can 5 cards could be glued together so perfectly that it is essentially undetectable under a 10x loop 100 years after being glued, then creased, folded and tossed about.

The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...agnerstrip.jpg

[tedzan]

Regarding this recent comment......
"The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate
cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO."

I don't think you realize that the printers employed by American Lithographic were the best at their trade. 100 years ago, they were the
foremost lithographers in this country. Accurately piecing together 5 images of BB players was a trivial task for these professionals. Have
you ever seen the amazing lithographic pieces of art produced by American Litho. ?
These little pieces of cardboard we call T206's pale by comparison.

However since you brought up this subject, I ask all of you to take a good look at the scan of this strip in post #39. Many of you have
said that the vertical lines between the cards were printed. Check it out again guys....if those lines were printed, then they would have
the identical intensity (and appearance) as the black ink printed proof cross-marks.
Instead these vertical lines are "hairline" thin and no where as intense. In no way are these hairline vertical lines the result of printing.
And, no one here has yet been able to explain these lines. Other than they are indeed the separations between these images.

I think Frank Wakefield's following post best describes the make up of this "5-image" strip.

"....It isn't cards at all. It is separate papers, printed on the papers are the images that would eventually be the fronts of certain
white border tobacco cards, the papers are pieced together as seen. It isn't a card, nor 5 cards, and it isn't even a printer's proof.
It seems a spec sample of what was planned, a demonstration of what could be....."


TED Z

[tedzan]

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Look we all agree on two things regarding this strip....

(1) It is an original pre-production piece printed in early 1909.

(2) It is a tremendous T206 artifact.


Some think it's a continuous strip, and others of us differ. The color differences in of the 5 images with respect to each other
contradicts everything we know about American Litho's 6-color printing process. That, and other more subtle aspects of this
artifact leads us to believe it is not exactly what it is advertised as being.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- Leon posted that the previous owner of the card, Wayne Varner, said with certainty that it is a continuous strip. He owned it before it was slabbed and held it in his hand. Doesn't the controversy end right there? Can one of the original owners of the card be wrong? Seems like we've passed the point of it being debatable. That cinches it for me. Don't you agree with that?

[GoSoxBoSox]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The color differences in of the 5 images with respect to each other contradicts everything we know about American Litho's 6-color printing process.

As has been stated in this thread already almost anything can be done during a pre-production trial run. You yourself have stated these American Litho guys were the best in the business at the time. Doesn't that mean to you that they "might" be able to print outside of that normal production process if they want to for proofing purposes?

Originally Posted by tedzan

That, and other more subtle aspects of this
artifact leads us to believe it is not exactly what it is advertised as being.

I believe those other subtle aspects have been spoken about as well. I know I spoke of them in my post. It's very clear to me, after closely examining the artifact, this just cannot be 6 pieces glued together. I'd be shocked if I was proven wrong in this particular case.

Ted - is there any chance at all that you and your friends who examined this piece just "might" be wrong this one time? Just maybe?

I know I'm not perfect so I could be wrong. The professionals at SGC agree with me though so I feel like what I saw was most likely correct. I can only add that if SGC said I was wrong and that this was a creation by somebody that I'd have a good laugh because I was fooled. They get paid to know more about this than I do so I'd go with their professional opinion. I would think they would simply not holder the strip if they were unsure. Their reputation isn't worth the $50 holdering fee.

[barrysloate]

Ted- I do agree there are anomalies regarding this strip, and even to this day we are still not certain exactly how it was printed and presented to Wagner. But with Leon's post #74, at least the mystery of whether it's a continuous strip or five glued cards has been resolved. That was my only point.

[FrankWakefield]

Barry, I don't see how Leon's post, #74, resolves that it is a continuous strip. I doesn't resolve it for me... If it does for you then it does, for you, but not for everyone. And in that post, is Leon saying that Ted makes crap up, and/or that Ted can never admit being wrong?


Whatever it really is, however it came into being, it does seem to me to be something from just before the ATT's distribution of the white border tobacco cards, I agree that it is an artifact in T206 lore. I still think it's a preproduction paste up assemblage of what could be.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Yes Ted I have read through this entire thread much to my dismay. The reason I "singled" you out was I believe you were the first person to come up with the multiple cards theory in post #15 of this thread on May 19, 2010. I am not singling you out, but giving credit where credit is due. If you were not the person to come up with this theory I apologize.

[benjulmag]

What borders on hiliarity about this, as well as the PSA 8 Wagner, is that both instances can be conclusively resolved, I believe, by taking the card/"strip" out of its holder and re examining it based on available grading standards. In the case of the "strip", if in fact it is a strip, then presumably when out of the plastic one can simply do the "feel" test and then we're done. In the case of the PSA 8, a high magnification analysis of the borders (and for that I'm not even sure it is necessary to remove the card from the slab) will show whether that card's borders has such physical characteristics that, over the years, has caused PSA to designate countless cards with comparable borders as "authentic". Really, this is not that complicated. We're not trying to solve who shot Kennedy here. In the case of the "strip", inasmuch as I don't believe its value willl be materially impacted either way whether it is a strip or individual pre production cards glued together, I am hopeful that to resolve this hobby discussion its owner will allow the out-of-holder anaysis. In the case of the 8 Wagner, based on what its sister card (Conlon Plank) realized in the 2009 REA auction, an "A" designation will be a financial death knell. So in my lifetime, and probably that of my childrens/grandchildrens, that card will never be voluntarily re examined.

[HRBAKER]

Corey,
Maybe we could ask the former owner who has weighed in via e-m to Leon if he performed the "feel" test. I feel certain he most likely did.

Jeff

[Rob D.]

Here is a post attributed to Wayne Varner in a previous thread on this subject:

Ted Z and others, I can shed a little light on this proof strip. Back in 1978 Bill Zimpleman, Mike Wheat, Ken Blazek, and myself, Wayne Varner were on a buying trip in the Pittsburgh area and we purchased this strip from a gentleman who had purchased Wagner's house. We bought a number of items he found in the house. I cannot remember all the details, but after we purchased the strip, we had a drawing, and I won the strip. I sold it in 1980 to Barry Helper, who to my knowledge owned the strip until he passed away. I can tell you from holding the strip many times, it is not cards pasted together. Could that have been done at the factory and then potographed to send to Wagner, possibly, but not likely. However it was done, it was definately done at the factory, and has the proof lines like all the proof cards I have ever seen. I have seen the strip on several occasions since Barry passed away and it is in the same orginial condition as when I owned it from 1978 until 1980. There is no question it is orginial and unaltered no matter what anyone says. Hope this helps a little.

Wayne Varner
SHOEBOX CARDS

[GoSoxBoSox]

Thanks Rob.

I have never seen that thread. It's interesting to me after reading it that Ted says the same thing in that thread as he does in this thread. I especially like his post #63 in that thread.
.................................................. .................................................. ...

05-23-2010, 10:10 PM
tedzan
Ted Zanidakis
Member Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,499

Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure I understand your "overlaping" comment ?

The cross-hair proof marks are very precise ID's for aligning the 6-color registration process in the printing of these cards.
Therefore, when these cards are placed adjacent to each other, I fully expect these marks to be in perfect alignment from
card to card.

Everyone has to realize that this is a pre-production piece. These are not completed cards, but thin-film like FRONTS that
I claim were affixed on a horizontal strip. Again, I repeat, the inconsistency of the colors of these 5 cards with respect to
each other is a total PRINTING IMPOSSIBILITY. I dare anyone to show me an UNCUT sheet, or strip with "crazy" colors as
these; and, lines between the cards ? ? ? ?


Regarding your last statement......."Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted
on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself)"

Jon....we are talking about the foremost Lithographic Co. in America back then. These printers were world class craftsmen.
This "junk" that we are mulling over here is incidental compared to the large pieces of complex artwork that they produced
on a daily basis during that era.


TED Z
.............................End of post.............................................. ..............


You posted Wayne's post #68 from that thread. Ted never posted on that thread again after Wayne posted. Very interesting.

[tedzan]

WOW !

We have a new Gotcha Tandem (Rob D & Tom P) in motion here to bust Ted's chops. When you have nothing constructive or meaningful
to bring to the discussion, you try to go after the messenger.

Hey Tom, you don't know me....and, by your sarcastic posts here towards me, I don't care to know you. This last statement of yours.....
is quite ridiculous, as it shows either how ignorant you are, or worst yet, it's a sign of a sick mind.

"You posted Wayne's post #68 from that thread. Ted never posted on that thread again after Wayne posted. Very interesting. "


Look, I did not respond to Wayne Varner's post (dated 6/12/10) since my family and I were vacationing in Virginia that week.

But, I'll tell you what, NEWBIE ! ....the Philly Show is next month and Wayne Varner's booth is next to my booth. We will have a "knock-
down, drag-out" battle discussing this Wagner artifact....and, I'll be sure to fill you in with the blow-by-blow details.


T-Rex TED

[GoSoxBoSox]

Ted,

You can't admit that you "might" be wrong just this once? You can say what you will about my written tone but I was just telling the facts as I saw them after examining the card thoroughly. I wasn't actually trying to sound scarcastic. Nothing I said here is not true.

There is no need to attack Wayne in Philly for giving an opinion different from yours either. It's just a debate over baseball cards.

I'm not sure why you signed your post "T-Rex Ted"? Is that another dinosaur joke about your age or something? I would hope so. Because if it was supposed to be some kind of a threat it was a classless attempt over a trivial matter.

Regards,

Newbie

[Rob D.]

nm