SABR "2010 Overlooked 19C BB Legend" Vote Results

Joe_G. · #1 08-12-2010, 07:19 PM

Anyone else have some love for Deacon White to share ??

Hankphenom · #2 08-14-2010, 08:14 PM

Nick Young:

President, NL, 1885-1902
Sec/Treas, NL, 1876-1885
Organized National Association, 1871
Manager, 1860s/70s
Player, 1850s-60s

Major influence during the entire period that saw baseball move from the amateur "gentleman's game" to undisputed major league status as America's National Pastime.

Joe_G. · #3 08-14-2010, 08:27 PM

Thanks for the bump Hank. I have nothing to add on Nick Young but will take the opportunity to clarify that I do not own the cards I posted, those hit the market back in 2006 (Hunt Auction).

Anyone going to challenge my post? I'll take a "no reply" as support for Deacon White as most deserving (together with Pete Browning)

.

milkit1 · #4 08-14-2010, 10:39 PM

Jim McCormick wasnt even mentioned?

GaryPassamonte · #5 08-15-2010, 06:36 AM

Joe, I'll play devil's advocate on the Deacon White case. Although White was a very good player for many years, he was not great. During a 20 year career, he rarely was a league leader in either offensive or defensive categories. White's strength lies in his longevity. He built a solid career, but HOF, I'm not sure. As I stated in a prior post, White received only 1 vote in 1936 and wasn't even a suggested candidate on the ballot. He was more of a write in choice. In 1936 he was no more forgotten than any other 19th century player, so he was considered on an equal basis with the other players.
Now, my Ross Barnes plug. His career follows a path almost the opposite of White. He was the star of professional baseball from 1871-1876 and a great player. He was a league leader in almost every category. There is no disputing this. Yet, his career was soon over and he was out of baseball by age 31. In the 1936 HOF election, Barnes was a suggested candidate and received 3 votes.
We can debate whether HOF election should reward short term greatness over long term consistency all day, but in many HOF discussions on this board we usually prefer to remove the Mazeroskis and Suttons more than the Koufaxs and Josses. White's credentials are similar to Sutton's and Barnes's are similar to Koufax's. Long term consistency versus short term greatness. What's your preference?

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #6 08-15-2010, 08:15 AM

I'm surprised that Deacon's brother, Will White, was not mentioned in the vote. I understand that Deacon had a far longer and more pioneering career, but Will was a great talent in his own right.

I would also have enjoyed seeing more votes for Tony Mullane. Will White, Mullane and O'Day would be my three choices for HOF enshrinement.

Joe_G. · #7 08-15-2010, 11:14 AM

Great hearing other arguments. And you Gary, you are sticking up for another one of my favorites in Ross Barnes. If I had to pick one of the two, however, I would go with Deacon White even if we only compared the two players during the nine seasons Barnes played.

Ross Barnes had some great years over his short career enjoying 3 batting titles over nine seasons. During those same baseball seasons Deacon White likewise had some good years, leading the league twice in batting average. 1876 was perhaps Barnes best, but injury and banning of the fair-foul hit would never allow him to return to his previous glory. For his career, Barnes would hit .3597 to Deacon Whites .3442 (again, comparing the same seasons). During this stretch, Deacon White actually played more which is no small feat for an 1870s catcher. A closer look at Deacon's stats show he hit best when he caught the least. In 1877 (the only season in which he didn't play most of his games catching), he led the league with a .387 BA. Had Deacon White played another position during his prime, his offensive numbers would have been more impressive. However, playing another position would have diminished Deacon's greatness for he was the game�s best catcher at a time when catching was critical to a team's success. Unfortunately, it is hard to demonstrate Deacon's defensive greatness with stats. He played the position like no other, often with higher risk than others dared (playing right behind the batter to keep runners from advancing). At times this would lead to more errors, but Deacon still averaged well under an error/game caught (remarkable considering). Personally, I'd like to see both in the HOF, but if I had to pick one, I would vote in Deacon White for his 1870s catching dominance. Add to it his offensive numbers and longevity at another position and I don't see anyone more deserving of enshrinement.

By 1936, the voters certainly didn't recall the game as it was played in the 1870s. Unfortunate for Deacon, they far more likely remembered the farce catching became during the 1890s. By then, catching was considered the place you'd stick your least talented player. Throw a couple pillows on your largest poor lug and ask him to stand in the way of every pitch. As iconic as catching was in the 1870s, it disappeared during the 1880s until by 1890 it was often made a mockery of.

rhettyeakley · #8 08-15-2010, 03:08 PM

All of the guys being mentioned are great candidates but for my money the guy that needs to get in is Tony Mullane. He was a 30+ game winner every season from 1882-1887, except 1885 when he was "suspended" for the entire season by the American Association for completely underhanded reasons.

Had he played even to 50% of his ability through that season he would have ended with 300+ wins (instead of the 284 he currently has) and would already be a HOFer. IMO it is a total joke that he didn't get in instead of his teammate Bid McPhee. There has been a distinct bias against AA players (for the same reason Jay mentioned earlier with Browning) for way too long.
-Rhett

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