SABR "2010 Overlooked 19C BB Legend" Vote Results

[kkkkandp]

I am just as surprised at the poor showing by George Van Haltren. He is on many of the "best players not already in the Hall of Fame" lists and his statistics are certainly comparable to Dahlen's.

While Browning had an outstanding average, his totals are substantially lower than both Dahlen's and Van Haltren's and Browning's career was basically over at 32. I think he gets a lot of attention simply due to the "Louisville Slugger" connction as well as his colorful lifestyle.

[oldjudge]

I concur that Browning was the class of the list. The arguement against him was that he excelled in a weaker league (the American Association). However, in 1890, while competing with the stars of the National League in the Player's League, he led the league in hitting.
I would like to see Dummy Hoy and Dave Orr on that list also. Personally, I think Browning, White, Hoy, Orr, Stovey, Caruthers and Van Haltren all belong in the HOF. You can take McCarthy and Maz out for starters to make room.

[Joe_G.]

Point / Counter Point . . .

Here are a couple thoughts for your consideration. By 1936, the biggest issue facing Deacon White and many of the other 19th century greats was that they were forgotten. While Deacon White did play until 1890, his most impressive years, the years in which he clearly distanced himself from all others, spanned from the late 1860s through 1879 (his catching days). Most voters in 1936 had no memory of Deacon in his heyday unless they themselves were approaching 80+ years of age. I suspect very few of the voter’s fathers even remembered much about Deacon White. Before his death in 1939, Deacon White was the oldest major leaguer in the land, he had out-lived his contemporaries.

The more recent probing studies bring to light just how significant Deacon White was to the game of baseball. Recent books like “Catcher: How the Man Behind the Plate Became an American Folk Hero” by Peter Morris explain in great detail how important the catcher’s role was through the decades. In the 1870s, the catcher was deemed the most important position in baseball, a status it would never again attain. If you were the most skilled player on an 1870s nine and you were a truly brave soul, you just might make a successful catcher. The team with the best catcher typically won regardless of who might be pitching, hitting, etc. The games best pitchers needed equally capable catchers or they would flounder. The danger of catching was never higher than the 1870s when pitch speeds were on the rise, new pitches debuted such as the curve ball, and the dangerous proposition of playing right behind the batter when runners were aboard (a tactic Deacon White is credited with introducing). All this without safety equipment to protect against foul tips as would become popular (and necessary) by the 1880s and beyond. Deacon White was the gold standard, the best aspired to play like him. Deacon caught masterfully and did so for more games than anyone else in the 1870s.

Beyond his catching abilities, Deacon was also a feared hitter, often posting best or near-best numbers for his position, sometimes leading the whole league in BA, hits, RBIs, etc. Deacon White then re-invented himself as a 3rd baseman for the second half of his career (catching more games than anyone else in the 1870s did take its toll). If you dismiss his hero status of the 1870s and wipe the slate clean, Deacon was still impressive (Bill James ranks him as 76th best 3rd baseman of all time). Even when he became the oldest man in the league in 1887, he batted better than league average, heck better than the Wolverines league leading team average.

One should also note that Championships seemed to follow him around. Of course being part of two different "Big 4" moves didn't hurt. Spalding and others often wrote about his catching abilities together with his leadership on and off the field, his virtuous ways responsible for his nickname, the Deacon.

Lastly, I know N172 pose counts mean next to nothing, but it is somewhat suspicious to at least me that Deacon White was issued 9 poses when the next highest pose count for any Detroit player is 5 (Deacon White with 9, 19 other players with 5 or less). To spice up this thread and give Deacon a little love, I will post copies of all 9 poses in Studio Proof format (5 here, 4 in the next).

[Joe_G.]

Anyone else have some love for Deacon White to share ??

[Hankphenom]

Nick Young:

President, NL, 1885-1902
Sec/Treas, NL, 1876-1885
Organized National Association, 1871
Manager, 1860s/70s
Player, 1850s-60s

Major influence during the entire period that saw baseball move from the amateur "gentleman's game" to undisputed major league status as America's National Pastime.

[Joe_G.]

Thanks for the bump Hank. I have nothing to add on Nick Young but will take the opportunity to clarify that I do not own the cards I posted, those hit the market back in 2006 (Hunt Auction).

Anyone going to challenge my post? I'll take a "no reply" as support for Deacon White as most deserving (together with Pete Browning) .

[milkit1]

Jim McCormick wasnt even mentioned?