Unconfirmed POLAR BEAR cards vs 1910 COUPON cards

[tedzan]

My notes suggest that the AB, BL, Cycle, and Drum cards were printed during the Summer/Fall of 1910. And,
the "Coupon" set was most likely printed in the Summer of 1910 (as it comprises of only 350 series Subjects).

Now, I think we can narrow down the 1st printing (350 series) of the Polar Bear cards to May 1910. The NY
variations of Demmitt and O'Hara do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and
O'Hara were printed only with Polar Bear backs.

Considering the above facts, an accurate timeline for the initial Polar Bear release can be established....since
both Demmitt & O'Hara played only a few games with their respective St Louis teams at the start of the 1910
season (then they were sent down to the Eastern League in early May of 1910).


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Tim,
what is the circumstance to which you are referring which would lend itself
to 'somewhat' of a linkage?

many thanks,
best,
barry

[tedzan]

Some approach the enormity of The Monster with "fear". They think that it was cobbled together serendipitously. Oh contraire.
For the most part, I see it as the result of very diligent attention by its designers to produce a quality series of BB cards that
accurately reflected the BB scene during the 1908-1910 seasons. When I started my 1st set in 1980, I was determined to com-
pletely understand its complexity.

1st.....I do not think that "linkage" is the appropriate wording here regarding the PB "No-Prints" and the T213-1 Major Leaguer's.
It is strictly a timeline difference. I feel very strongly that the initial PB press run can be dated to May (or June) 1910. Which is
reinforced by the Demmitt & O'Hara scenario. Furthermore, the following 20 subjects (which happen to be in the T213-1 set)
had either retired, or were in transition when the PB 350-series cards were printed.

2nd.....considering that quite a few of these T213 guys' careers ended in 1909 (or early 1910), I would venture to say that
American Litho. produced this COUPON set earlier in 1910 than was, heretofore, thought of.

T213-1 subjects that are expected to be POLAR BEAR No-Prints......

Becker
Byrne
Campbell
Charles
Joe Dunn
Engle
Fletcher
Howell
Huggins
Hunter
Killian
LaPorte
Lennox
Marshall
Matty McIntyre
Mowery
Paskert
Rhoades
Rossman
Starr

This also applies to 6 - 10 Southern Leaguer's in this T213 set.


TED Z

Tim

Mark Macrae and I were hoping to meet you in Baltimore, but we both had to leave Friday evening.

[Abravefan11]

Hi Barry – This situation is a complex one to say the least but I’ll try and give a brief and hopefully easy to understand answer.

There are 68 Coupon Type 1’s that breakdown as follows.
20 - Southern Leaguers (All Southern Association)
6 – Super Prints
42 - 350 Only

We know the 20 SL’ers were not printed with Polar Bear backs.

The six Super prints were printed with Polar Bear backs.

Of the remaining 42 I show the following:

A+B+C+D – 3 No Prints

Polar Bear – 39 Unconfirmed
Carolina Brights – 32 Unconfirmed
Old Mill – 31 Unconfirmed

If we select just a subset of the T213-1’s (350 Only) it would seem at first look like there is a correlation between the PB No Prints, or CB’s, or OM’s and the 350 Only players included in the Coupon 1 set and there might be (more on that later) but it’s not a printing connection like the 350 A+B+C+D or BL460/Red Hindu. There are enough anomalies when comparing the groups that show they’re not a match. The same goes for the Coupon Type 1 and A+B+C+D.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......"There are enough anomalies when comparing the groups that show they’re not a match.
The same goes for the Coupon Type 1 and A+B+C+D."

As of today, 23 of the 48 Major Leaguers in the COUPON set conform to the "Quintuplicate" back design.
And, another future large DRUM find might just add 12 more COUPON subjects to this list.

A-B-Co-Cy-D confirmed cards......

Becker
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Charles
Chase (blue portrait)
Cobb (red portrait)
Donovan (throw)
Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
LaPorte
Lennox
Mathewson (dark cap)
Marshall
McBride
Myers (fielding)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (bat)
Willett


Yes, the COUPON-1 set is an "enigma'....but, at the same time I find this set quite fascinating. For instance,
there are 48 Major Leaguers from the 350-only series. Now, where have we seen that number (48) before ?

Southern League series and the 460-only series....perhaps, 48-card sheets were a standard sheet format at
American Litho. ? ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - Only about 10% of the 350 Only players are "No Prints" in the A+B+C+D. So if you select a group of 42 to be in the Coupon set is makes sense that almost all of them will exist in both. But No Print A+B+C+D do exist in the Coupon Type 1 and this is telling.

I think you're on the right track at looking at the number of cards in this set, but I don't think it's 48. 48 was the total number of Southern Leaguers but all weren't produced in the first run. Only 34 were printed in the 150 series. 34 x 2 = 68. How many cards in the Coupon Type 1 set? 68

[tedzan]

1st....As you know, the Piedmont and Old Mill press runs of the SL series are 48 cards. If the press run of the 34 SL Hindu cards
was also printed on a 48-card sheet, then I can imagine that they filled out that sheet with 14 Major Leaguers (ML). And, there
were many, many more Piedmont and Old Mill SLer's printed than Hindu SLer's.

Look, I'm using the example of 48 since it has occurred often in this set. It is one possible format (12 cards across x 4 rows down).
Of course, there are certainly other possible sheet configurations.

2nd....Regarding the Coupon set. You are mixing ML subjects with SL subjects. It doesn't work that way. We have concluded that
ALC pre-printed fronts of T206's (at least 4 or 5 sheets within the 350-only series) and added the tobacco brand back as needed.
The pre-printed sheets of SL cards were separate from the ML sheets.
Therefore, what I am saying is that a pre-printed sheet of 48 ML (from an early 350-only series run) was selected and printed with
the Coupon backs. And, I emphasize an EARLY RUN, since many of the subjects on that sheet designated for the Coupon backs were
retired ballplayers during the 1909 season.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

In my opinion the original 34 SL players were printed on one sheet or sheets first. The additional 14 came later and were included on sheets with other minor or major league players. This explains why even though the original 34 are available on more backs than the added 14, the added 14 are more common. They were mass produced since their sheets contained major leaguers as opposed to just SLer's. Also this is backed up by the Brown Old Mill cards only showing up within the original 34 group. Just those sheets had the Brown Old Mill printed on them.

Concerning the 48 major leaguers from the Coupon Type 1 set you need to keep in mind that 6 of those are Super Prints, so we're really discussing 42 350 Only players.

With that said I'm not mixing up the SL and ML players. The Coupon Type 1 were printed with front image sheets specific to that back. 68 front images in some order that then had the backs printed on them. They did not in my opinion segregate the ML and SL players onto different sheets for that issue as they did with the first 34 in the 150 series.

[ethicsprof]

very helpful and very intricate elucidations. many thanks.
Tim, when you say that 'it would seem at first look like there is a correlation...
and there might be... but it's not a printing connection,' may I ask (using Ted's language) what the explicit correlation is and should it be considered
serendipitous cobbling or diligent intentionality by the designer?
forgive any excursus from the thread, please.

best,
barry