Mike O'Keeffe really hates cards today

[oldjudge]

Short of PSA (and its registry set monster) being taken down I see no major change in the hobby coming out of this. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't a very similar article published prior to the National last year.

[mark evans]

From a selfish perspective, I hope this development engenders a trade association to establish and enforce a code of ethics for dealers, auction houses and grading services, and that whoever is selected as its head could use some part-time help from this retired lawyer who would like nothing more than supplementing my pension through the hobby.

Hope to see all next week.

Mark

[calvindog]

Mark, I suspect the forthcoming top-secret pow-wow at the National should spawn such a code of ethics and perhaps a trade association. I'm unsure if Doug and Bill will be attending but as long as Marshall and JP are leading the charge what could possibly go wrong?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mark, I suspect the forthcoming top-secret pow-wow at the National should spawn such a code of ethics and perhaps a trade association. I'm unsure if Doug and Bill will be attending but as long as Marshall and JP are leading the charge what could possibly go wrong?

Jeff - why don't you tell us how you really feel? Don't hide, spill it
(always appreciative of you and your recommendation).

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

for a long time i couldnt figure out (didnt spend much time thinking about it) why marshall fogel was involved with memory lane. after reading o'keefe's article and he mentions the longtime friendship with fogel/mastro, it kinda now makes things understandable.

meanwhile, nothing matters what the outcome will be. there is only one thing that could really shake up the hobby.. the psa registry crashing and being disabled. for the record i am not stating that i want that to happen. with legendary auctions still chugging away and doing well, what more reality does this hobby need than to prove collectors want material and dont care who sells it, no matter what they say on a public board.

i have heard/read so many things here in the last 6 years about different auction houses that would make a person think "how can they still stay in business" yet a beautiful example was laid out right in front of our eyes with mastro/legendary and it still didnt make any difference what-so-ever.

so all this is a soap opera.

[jmk59]

Originally Posted by Thrill-of-the-Hunt

with legendary auctions still chugging away and doing well, what more reality does this hobby need than to prove collectors want material and dont care who sells it, no matter what they say on a public board.

... a beautiful example was laid out right in front of our eyes with mastro/legendary and it still didnt make any difference what-so-ever.

so all this is a soap opera.

Bingo. Perfectly said. This is exactly why I think speedbump, at most. In the end, people only marginally care and will still buy cards.

Joann

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mark, I suspect the forthcoming top-secret pow-wow at the National should spawn such a code of ethics and perhaps a trade association. I'm unsure if Doug and Bill will be attending but as long as Marshall and JP are leading the charge what could possibly go wrong?

Let's suppose, for sake of argument, hypothetically of course, that some auction houses condone shill bidding and that most or all of them accept a large percentage of their consignments from known or suspected card doctors. Why would we expect the same people to enforce a code of ethics?

[calvindog]

That's an easy one, Peter: because they love the hobby, don't you know?

[toppcat]

O'Keefe is just doing his job-if it helps root out hobby fraud, I am all for it!

We have been serious collectors of rare baseball memorabilia and rare high grade type cards for more than 35 years. Whilst we have only sold a select few items since the grading services became dominant players in the market, we have had five cards items that "were altered" In each case we obtained our money back. In the case of one dealer who did not want to accommodate our request, we said we would call the FBI. That solved the problem and within 48 hours we had a check and an apology note.

Whilst we have no way of proving "shill" bidding we do not that Wolfers did it,and its owner, Duane Garrett, (a long time Al Gore supporter) jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge rather than face criminal charges..

Although shill bidding and "fakes" are prevalent in every collectible arena,
it is our hope that the FBI and USPS investigation will catch the culprits; that they will be forced to pay heavy fines for their unspeakable actions, and that they will be sent away for long prison sentences.

In this way, hundreds of potential forgers and shill bidders will get the message.

Perhaps Topps can come out with a new set of Shills and Crooks- the money raised could go to support a hobby review body. We have been contacted in the past by certain government agencies with regard to our experiences with certain dealers and auction houses. We will do anything that we can to bring justice and fairness to to the collector community.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

Top dollar paid for rare, high grade type cards and rare memorabilia

[Leon]

Unfortunately, I concur with ya'lls cynicism.

this was meant towards Peter's and Jeff's comments...and of course I am concerned about the hobby but I too think the speed bump analogy is correct.

[calvindog]

Most on this thread when considering the impact on the hobby after an indictment of some of the crooks are thinking 'how will this affect prices and my investment as a whole?' Instead, consider that an indictment will a) clear out some particularly scummy dealers/auction houses principles (which will automatically reduce some fraud in the hobby); and b) act as a deterrent to some of the other scummy dealers/auction house principles who are still in operation, which will also will have a positive impact on hobbyists. Of course, our hobby is really up to the ears in cretins and some of them will not stop defrauding us until they are literally in cuffs and imprisoned -- and only stopped until they are back on the street and operating again.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

our hobby is really up to the ears in cretins

True dat!

And I hear the location of the secret meeting has now been moved to the Minneapolis airport mens' restroom. Just tap three times on the foot of the guy in the next stall to let them known you're in.

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

jeff, of course, you are hoping this will happen. but reality is most of these investors may have lost out like the housing market. here is my example: for years mastro and others have shilled up prices (alledgedly), so for say 5 years it seemed the material was holding steady and had a solid floor. now i see some of this stuff show up at REA and Heritage and the prices are down quite a bit. it could coincidence with the economy and housing market being in the cellar.

i think the scummy dealers/sellers/auction houses should be investigated and punished. the most cocky and arrogant of them will probably fall first, as most would like to see them knocked off their petastools.

everybody (or 98%) of people in this hobby/industry love the idea of funding their collections through resale of investment cards or undervalued pickups turned for a profit to buy more stuff. the reason legendary may have been able to hang in there was the opportunity for bidders to buy lots undervalued, so every dealer and savvy collector was looking for a bargain.

rand brotman

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's suppose, for sake of argument, hypothetically of course, that some auction houses condone shill bidding and that most or all of them accept a large percentage of their consignments from known or suspected card doctors. Why would we expect the same people to enforce a code of ethics?

Peter--

My conclusion assumes that the current investigation(s) result in indictments. If so, my thinking (based in part on 20 years with the Justice Dep't) would be that those currently engaged in fraud would opt for self-policing over futher government intrusion into their activities. But, as with most everything else, I could be wrong.

Mark

[calvindog]

Mark, I think you'd be wrong with this group of shysters. They're the sort that while nervous that others are being investigated/indicted, breathe a sigh of relief that they're not in the crosshairs. In their minds, they can't earn a living in this business without cheating and will continue to do so until stopped. Any purported claim of self-policing is just an effort to keep authorities off their backs. It's the proverbial fox guarding the henhouse.

[barrysloate]

Self policing doesn't work at all.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by mark evans

From a selfish perspective, I hope this development engenders a trade association to establish and enforce a code of ethics for dealers, auction houses and grading services, and that whoever is selected as its head could use some part-time help from this retired lawyer who would like nothing more than supplementing my pension through the hobby.

Hope to see all next week.

Mark

+1


Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Subpoenas, arrests and federal officials. The term "triple crown" just took on a new meaning at the National. If I can't make it, I guess I'll just turn on "America's Most Wanted" for a recap.

I've met a lot of good people in this hobby, but if people are found doing what is alleged, get them out no matter what the consequences to collecting.

[Basilone]

Can someone set up a twitter feed so that those of us who are not attending this year can be kept up to date on what is going on in real time?

[Rich Klein]

There will not be any issue to collecting no matter what occurs. We'll still collect and enjoy the better aspects of collecting and still oooh and ahhh when the good stuff hits the market And we'll still make friends because we still have this common bond relating to cards and sites such as Net 54 will still be another form of family.

So, no panic; enjoy the show and I look forward to seeing many of you in Baltimore.

Rich

[calvindog]

But what if it's your longtime friends who have been ripping you (and everyone else in the hobby) off? Can they at least become non-friends then? I mean if you're on a list of victims of which restitution is forthcoming, doesn't that sort of make for uncomfortable dinner conversation?

[Jewish-collector]

As long as Leon has the Net54 dinner at next year's National, that's all I care about.

[Rich Klein]

I was referring to the "good collecting guys" on this board who do things the right way

But yes, that certainly makes for very terse dinners and show greetings.

Thankfully on my level; I'm owed nothing -- but if there are any good fights or shouting matches before I get there on Wednesday. please fill me in on the details

Rich