OT: 1954 Topps uncut sheet

[tedzan]

Regarding your........

"Ted. This one is a bit out of your scope of expertise. You might want to do more listening rather than lecturing.
Routinely trimmed cards make it into holders, both SGC and PSA holders. The guys who are able to trim one edge
of a card without detection can trim four edges of a card without detection. Just takes longer and in the case of
this sheet their effort will be greatly rewarded. You are showing your inexperience in this arena if you simply assume
the card doctor who wins this particular sheet is gonna take a knife to the sheet and place the cards in Card Saver
1s and submit them."

I don't know what your problem is ? But, I'm tired of your constant attempts to "bust my chops". I don't know you,
and by your comments, it's obvious that you certainly don't know me. Was Barry Sloate...."a bit out of his expertise"....
when he said the same exact thing that I said ?

Every freakin time you have responded to something I have posted lately on this Net, you have been a "wise-a$$".
Again, I'll repeat....what is your problem ? ?


TED Z

[dstudeba]

Ted, I don't know Greg, but maybe one of the things that got him was this quote from your first post.

I really do not understand this discussion, regarding this 1954 Topps sheet. Trust me, it would be a really stupid decision to cut it up.
Uncut sheets have always been in great demand; and, will usually be worth more than the total value of the individual cards on them.

I know many people here hold you in high regard and therefore your opinion carries weight. With that position comes responsibility and an expectation by others that your opinion is based on factual evidence.

You said that the reason they would all be graded Authentic is that SGC could catch the new cut. However there are pages of threads about trimmed cards getting into holders.

I will let Greg fight his own battles. The real reason I posted was to show an actual example, not my opinion, of a sheet that could be cut up for profit. Here is a sheet of 1909 Obaks that sold in REA for $5875, or $78 per card. Cut it up and grade it Authentic and now you are at $93 per card. Looking at VCP (http://www.vintagecardprices.com) for recent prices we see these prices for SGC Authentic:

12 11/17/08 Frank Browning $99.99
15 9/16/08 Carroll $82.90
16 10/18/09 Albert Carson $123.75
27 4/2/08 Chick Gandil $1,725.00
30 6/28/07 Jack Graney $108.39
31 1/21/07 Ed Griffin $127.50
48 3/6/09 McCredie $135.00
53 10/18/09 Mundorff $149.63
58 3/6/09 Ornsdorff $122.63
65 3/6/09 Smith $122.63

Only one out of ten cards sold for less than $93. Plus there is the Gandil involved. So if you cut the sheet up, sold the cards for $105 each and the Gandil for $1300, you would gross $9175 or $121 a card. There are shipping and auction fees, plus the hassle factor, but there is a good profit margin.

That said, I think it is a nicer piece intact. However the market says it is better to cut it up even if you can't get it into numbered holders.

[tedzan]

You hav apparently, misconstrued what I said. I have cracked open many a graded card (PSA and SGC) to find that the card in the
plastic was. trimmed. I was not referring to this age-old problem.

I simply was talking about vintage uncut sheets (pre-1960's) that have been professionally (or un-professionally) cut whose cards
in most cases will be detected as trimmed.

I will bring this to your attention, too. What I said was the exact same comment that Barry Sloate made in a post just prior to mine.
But, he wasn't criticized (nor should he be) for it.

What you fail to see (or have knowledge) of is that Greg has been on my butt over the past month (or two) on certain posts of mine
that in no way had any comment regarding him. I don't know this guy and I don't understand what his problem is with me.

Do you understand ?


TED Z

[Matt]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I will bring this to your attention, too. What I said was the exact same comment that Barry Sloate made in a post just prior to mine.
But, he wasn't criticized (nor should he be) for it.

Ted - if you point me to the post of Barry's that you think says the same as you, I might be able to point out the differences that caused the reaction. As is, I'm not sure what post you are referring to.

[dstudeba]

Ted -

Thank you for responding to my post. I took the time to present research and analysis that refuted your point about vintage cut sheets. However you have no comment on it. Instead you reiterate your point about Greg having it in for you.

As for the sheet cut cards getting into holders I believe there are plenty of posts on it as I said previously. Maybe not on this forum since prewar sheets are rare. I am sorry that when I said trimmed I meant sheet cut. Many of these cases are 1960s and 1970s cards simply because there are more uncut sheets from this era. However you say that SGC and PSA will detect these, however there are those of us who aren't so sure. Definitely not sure enought to call it a stupid financial move.

In the end these are opinions since we don't know how good the sheet cutters are and how bad the grading companies are.

The meat of my post was about the financial advantage of cutting up a vintage sheet, getting Authentic grades, and selling it for profit. I posted facts, but it was ignored.

Yes, I understand.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

In spite of some problems with the sheet such as some apparent water damage in the lower left corner, a massive crease through the Jerry Lynch card and some dog-eared corners, this is still an incredible item to own.

If I had the choice of this uncut sheet or all the cards individually as Mint or 9 by any of the third party grading companies, I'd take the sheet for all the reasons discussed about cards earlier in this thread. In my opinion, card doctoring is so prevalent that you don't know what you are getting anymore when you buy graded cards. Even with the flaws on the sheet, it is still an extremely rare item and you know exactly what you are getting.

Congratulations in advance to whoever wins it and unless it goes for something totally outrageous, in my opinion someone will be getting it at a very undervalued price and hopefully that person will keep it intact.

(BTW, I don't own the sheet in case anyone is thinking I'm hyping it for my own gain).

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think both Barry and Ted are wrong, in that a skilled card doctor not only can have the sheet cut but can do stuff to the edges to make them look original. Just my opinion. EDIT ADD There are people who doctor cards for a living, and some are very good at it. That said, I hope a collector buys and preserves the sheet, what a great item.

[barrysloate]

Peter- I agree with you that card doctors are incredibly skilled. But I also feel that if any sheet is hand cut the cards may or may not get a numerical grade.

In the example Dan S. gave regarding the Obak sheet, I was amazed to see that even if every card is graded Authentic the sheet still has a positive break value. I don't think the same is true with a 1954 Topps sheet. Who is going to pay a premium for 54T commons in AUTH holders? In this case somebody needs to be absolutely sure the sheet is cut properly, and of course there is no guarantee of that.

[botn]

Ted,

You hold yourself out as a T206 expert and I do not know enough about them to know if you are. I do know that when you have posted on threads relating to the limited topics I do know something about, your facts have been off yet that has not prevented you from making pronouncements. I have a problem with someone posting an inaccurate opinion as if it is an absolute fact. What Barry wrote was not exactly what you wrote. I think you are way off base on this thread and out of your element. You have a habit of getting on individuals who do not agree with you or threads which you do not agree with. Are others not permitted to have opinions or be more expert than you in any areas?

Barry,

If this sheet is won by a person who is going to cut it up it will not be done with the hopes the cards will get into holders. Speculation will not be a part of this acquisition.

Greg

[philliesphan]

surprised at how low the sheet went? About $85- per card [per vig], with a sheet that includes Aaron, Kaline RCs and Williams.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by philliesphan

surprised at how low the sheet went? About $85- per card [per vig], with a sheet that includes Aaron, Kaline RCs and Williams.

I was surprised. I looked at it, but figured it would go for $18,000 - $20,000, and decided to pass.

[teetwoohsix]

My opinion would be to leave the sheet intact the way it is and not cut them down into individual cards.

But if one were to cut them down, couldn't the owner of the sheet contact the Topps company and pay them to "factory cut" the sheet down into individuals and therefore the cards would, by definition, be "factory cut"- or would they still get an "authentic" grade?

Maybe Topps uses different machinery and couldn't reproduce the same cut?

Clayton