1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[jrhatchjr]

Frank Frisch with type 1 and type 2 upside down backs...

[ValKehl]

Todd,
Many thanks for the pics and the explanation. Now, I comprehend.

For what it is worth, my eyes have an easier time distinguishing between the Type 1 and Type 2 backs by looking to see where the "B" in "BALL" is in relation to the "p" in "pictures" above it.
Val

[brianp-beme]

Glad to see a little action on this thread. I know I have slightly tweaked its focus, but I think that maybe the issue date can be solidified somehow by establishing the relevance of the back variations. If anyone can do it, Rhett can.

Thanks Todd for claryifying the top to bottom/bottom to top issue...sometimes it is tough for me to successfully describe something of this nature. And thanks Val and especially Jim for your contributions to the verified type one list, and the little photo primer of each back variation. One question for Jim...is the Kilduff the 'leaping' pose? I will leave it on the unconfirmed list until verified.

I do like Val's suggestion of identifying the backs...my eyes also find it easier to locate the positioning of 'Ball' relative to the line above it. Like mentioned previously, I used to measure the first line in millimeters too and still have them identified on my checklist as either 67mm T/B, 71mm T/B or 71mm B/T...now I don't have to carry along a metric ruler.

Jim's back variation percentages roughly parallel what I have (I would have to break out all the duplicates to find out for sure). A theory on the printing could be that the full set was issued with the type 1 back, and that a second, partial printing was issued of the type two and the upside backs on the same sheet (because I have not seen both of these backs together for a single player). If we can confirm that all the backs were issued with the type one backs, then I think that Rhett's contention that these were issued only one year (or perhaps partially reissued later with no changes to front, just the back) is stronger.

I have updated the unconfirmed list of type 1 variations below...feel free to pitch in. There has to be a few more collectors of this silly little set, or at least people that have a type in their collection to help out the cause.

Revised list of unconfirmed type one back variations:

Ty Cobb
Heinie Groh
Rogers Hornsby
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)
Fred C. Williams


thanks, Brian

[jrhatchjr]

I do hereby confirm that the Kilduff type 1 card in my posession is of him leaping. In addition, I also have these three type 1 backs in my collection:

Hornsby
Groh
Fred C Williams

I did say I was tired last night. The fact that my cards are in no order whatsoever also contributed to me missing them the first time around :-)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks to Jim I have narrowed down the 'Type 1' unverified backs (as a reminder type 1 backs are the ones where the word 'Ball' in line two lines up below the 'p' in the word 'picture' located in line one...thanks Val).

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Ty Cobb
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)

Let us know if you have any of the above with the Type 1 back, and maybe we can nail down for certain that each card was issued with this back, and then perhaps we can move onto the other back types.

Brian

[Matt]

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Matt...that is a nice card and believe it or not, fairly high grade for this issue. Here is the update:

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Ty Cobb
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)


Brian