T206 Red Kleinow (Boston) DRUM defies it's 460-only series status ?

[tedzan]

First....my discovery that Joe Doyle, Kleinow (NY), Rhoades (arm extended) and F. Smith (Chicago) were intended
as additional 350/460 subjects (ala apple green backs in my Sovereign set) is revealing, in that none of these four
subjects exist with either AB 350 Frame or AB 350 No Frame backs.

Now, if you are inclined to suggest that some day these 4 cards will surface with these AB 350 backs....then I can
only reply that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Furthermore, regarding the Kleinow (Boston) card....it appears to me that you are trying to equate a DRUM back to
an AB 350 No Frame back. This does not jive, as DRUM backs are a magnitude greater in scarcity than AB 350 backs.
If we know of one Kleinow/DRUM, then we would have already seen several AB 350 Kleinow's.

The scarcest T206 is the Joe Doyle error card and we have confirmed 8 of them. All the other T206 permutations are
catalogued by now (after Millions of cards that have been sampled). Perhaps, the only exceptions to this are BL 460,
DRUM, and Red HINDU cards.

No, there is no way that Kleinow will show up with an AB 350 back....and, I'm willing to place a bet on that fact.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted love to see a scan...here's mine.



Who knows perhaps I will need that Murphy Red Hindu after all...with all these surprises.

[Mikehealer]

Wonka, that is a beauty.

[Abravefan11]

Ted -

This is another situation you and I will have to agree to disagree on for now. I can't say that the Kleinow AB 350 No Frame would be a Boston or New York variation but one should exists with one or the other if the Drum card that started this thread does in fact exist IMO.

The Monster is full of surprises and I believe you would have said the Kleinow Boston Drum was an impossibility a week ago based on your "rules." This find opens up the possibility that the AB 350 NF could be out there with either a New York or Boston team designation. If it doesn't it would be the only back it is a "No Print" in across the distribution path it follows.

Regards,
Tim

** I think it's more likely that I am wrong on this than you Ted. I just need to understand why. I may have found the answer but it's going to take me sometime to determine for sure.

[cfc1909]

first , I really believe that there will be some new undiscovered front/back combos. In most cases we can pretty much predict which ones will appear. This set has rules and we are in the process of figuring them out but there will be rule breakers.

Not long ago everybody thought the apple green Sovereign was just faded ink. Now it has shown us other 350-460 examples we would not have known about.

I know not long ago 3 BL 350s were added to the BL list and a Bush Tolstoi.

Tim you have the Kleinow EPDG listed as Boston-it also exist with New York-I believe this is one of those tough EPDGs-not saying there this is the only one, just tougher than a regular EPDG.

Kleinow.jpg

Kleinowb.jpg

[tedzan]

OK, some are asking for scans, others think it is a re-fronted (or re-backed) card, and others have questioned the existence
of this Kleinow / DRUM card. Besides your responses, I have received several emails. I will tell you this card is not a new find.
This card has been known since the early 1980's. My source for this card is Bill Heitman, who at one time either had it or had
seen it. My experience with Bill is.....that every T206 front / back combo that he has personally confirmed (years ago), have
eventually surfaced. Therefore, if Bill said it exists, that's certainly good enough for me.

Regarding Kleinow (Boston) with any other 350 Subjects back.....I say it is virtually impossible. American Litho's (ALC) timeline
is such that their 350-series press runs were completed by mid-Summer of 1910. Their last batch of 350 series cards were the
AB 350, CYCLE 350 and BROAD LEAF 350 (we have ALC records to this effect). Followed by the DRUM 350 press run late in the
Summer of 1910. Kleinow was acquired by Boston on May 26, 1910. By the time ALC was aware of the team change, they were
printing DRUM backs. They simply changed the caption. No artwork change was necessary since Kleinow's chest protector cov-
ered his uniform's New York logo. So, they printed his Boston card in this DRUM press run.

Another timeline that reinforces the above timeline is the ALC's first printing of their 460 series cards, which according to my re-
search must of occurred in mid-Summer of 1910....and the initial 460 series press runs consisted of the SOVEREIGN brand.
This I believe is true due to the following 2 reasons......

(1) The six super-prints were re-printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs (these 6 super-prints were the very first 460 series cards).

(2) Kleinow (Boston) and F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) are NO-PRINTS in the SOVEREIGN 460 series.

However, Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago & Boston) were subsequently printed with most of the other T206 brands that
are in the 460 series.

Frank Smith and Billy Purtell were traded from Chicago to Boston on Aug. 9, 1910. Purtell (Chicago) is found with a DRUM back,
which further narrows down the printing date of the DRUM cards to no later than Aug of 1910.


That's it guys....the above timelines pretty well tell the story. Sorry, but I cannot further continue to debate hypotheticals....
namely, Kleinow with an AB 350 back (or any other 350 backs).

It is what it is......so, if you want to continue to discuss Kleinow with a DRUM back, I'm all for continuing that subject.


TED Z

Edited to add Billy Purtell to this mix.