T206 Red Kleinow (Boston) DRUM defies it's 460-only series status ?

[sreader3]

Ted, Jim:

Here is my thesis: Kleinow (Boston) WOULD HAVE BEEN a Drum 460 except for the fact that American Litho didn't go to the trouble to make Drum 460s due very small Drum production quantities. It was a matter of simple economics. American Litho initially intended to make Drums with 350 and 460 backs so they put the "350 subjects" designation on the initial Drum back. But they later aborted the plan to create a Drum 460 back due to miniscule Drum production quantities. After all, why pay someone to create a Drum 460 back if you're only going to ship a few hundred cards with that back? So even though the 460 print run had technically started, they decided to ship Kleinow (and possibly Smith) showing the team updates with the Drum 350 back.

One might then fairly wonder why there is a Broad Leaf 460 back. However, while small relative to Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign and even American Beauty and Cycle, total Broad Leaf production still dwarfed total Drum production, making the creation of a Broad Leaf 460 back far more economical than a Drum 460 back would have been.

A Drum 460 find would be brilliant indeed, but the discovery of Kleinow (Boston) with Drum 350 provides compelling evidence against the existence of Drum 460.

Your thoughts?

Scot

[E93]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Ted, Jim:



One might then fairly wonder why there is a Broad Leaf 460 back. However, while relatively small, total Broad Leaf production dwarfed Drum production, making the creation of a Broad Leaf 460 back far more economical than a Drum 460 back would have been.

Your thoughts?

Scot

And the BL 460 may have made it clear that it was not worth re-doing it for the smaller brands so they aborted a Drum 460 run. Just a hypothesis.
JimB

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by E93

And the BL 460 may have made it clear that it was not worth re-doing it for the smaller brands so they aborted a Drum 460 run. Just a hypothesis.
JimB

Quite possible.

[cfc1909]

I agree and I am pretty positive there will never be a Drum 460 find.

[Abravefan11]

So will we find an AB 350 No Frame Kleinow Boston or New York?

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

So will we find an AB 350 No Frame Kleinow Boston or New York?

Tim,

I would say AB 350 No Frame Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) is theoretically possible, but not Kleinow (Boston). I doubt Kleinow (Boston) will ever be found on any 350 back except Drum (assuming Drum can fairly be considered a 350 back) based on the small production hypothesis outlined above.

I think a perhaps more interesting question is whether a true 460-only subject (e.g. Devore, Geyer, Hummel, etc.) might ever surface with a Drum back. I doubt it, but who knows?

Scot

[theuclakid]

I hope I am not wasting anyone's time here, but I have a T206 Kleinow, Boston American with an Old Mill back....probably a common back but just checking.....I really have no idea...the card is in a GAI 5 holder that I know Mike Baker graded...thanks

[tedzan]

I have not seen a scan, but this Kleinow/DRUM input is from a highly reliable source. I have no reason to dispute it.

Frank Smith was traded Aug 9, 1910 (Chicago to Boston). I think this date was beyond the DRUM press run (circa..
mid-Summer 1910); therefore, I don't expect to see Smith with a DRUM back. But, who knows, the Monster may
prove me wrong on this.

Furthermore, Kleinow and Smith are mutually exclusive on certain 460 series backs. Smith exists with an AB 460 and
UZIT backs, while Kleinow exists with BL 460 and Red HINDU backs.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Scot -

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Kleinow Catching card is essentially a 350/460 subject with a team designation change. Until the discovery of the Drum it was believed that is was a change made between the 350 and 460 series printings. So with that said couldn't the AB 350 Boston version be possible or is there a timeline conflict with the printing of the AB's that would mean it would have to be a New York version AB?

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great points about the time lag between the Kleinow and Smith trades and how that plays out in terms of their back types. Makes me less inclined to think that Smith (Chicago and Boston) will surface with Drum.

Scot

[sreader3]

Tim,

My own view is that the Kleinow (Boston) Drum card was made AFTER the 460 print run had technically started; it's just that American Litho didn't bother to update the Drum back to say "Drum 460" due to extremely limited Drum production. All of the other "350 Subjects" backs (e.g. American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal) were updated for the 460 print run to say "460 Subjects." So I would NOT expect Kleinow (Boston) to surface with any "350 Subjects" back other than Drum.

Best,

Scot