Why are pencil autographs from the pre-1950s era so disrespected by collectors?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The card will be worth more if it didn't say "Nick". The reason for that is because generic signed items sell more than personalized ones, precisely because people want to feel a unique connection to the player.

How absurd--you'd feel a "unique connection to the player" by erasing someone else's name. I feel a unique connection to the player when I hold in my hand the same card or photo or baseball he did.

I don't feel any closer to the Babe holding this: (Ruth died before I was born; he never considered me "his pal.")


than I do holding this:


Yeah--the card will sell for more. A game-used Ruth jersey will bring the buyer more money if he cuts it into one inch squares, glues 'em to baseball cards, and inserts them randomly in the packs he's trying to flog. Is that OK, too?

And you card guys get bent out of shape if a paper fiber is hanging off the otherwise-pristine corner of your T206. Sheesh!

Do us memorabilia guys a favor--stick to cards, and don't go altering historical artifacts in the name of more profit when you resell.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

How absurd--you'd feel a "unique connection to the player" by erasing someone else's name. I feel a unique connection to the player when I hold in my hand the same card or photo or baseball he did.

You are missing the point. The unique connection is not derived by the erasure. I'm talking about the difference between personalized and not personalized. Most people would rather have a signed item that is not personalized than one which was personalized to someone. This is not surprising because it is harder to make the personal connection that drives autograph value when the item screams that connection was intended for someone else.

If you enjoy collecting autographed items that were personalized to other people, have a good time. But many people do not and erasing the name Nick would be tempting for them. You view "Nick" as more valuable words written by a legend. Others view it as four letters they wish Gehrig hadn't written.

If the person who owns this Gehrig decided to erase "Nick" because it would increase his enjoyment of the item, I would not fault him for it. It's his item to do with it as he wishes. And if he's concerned about the economic impact of that decision, I think that's his right. It is naive to ignore the economic realities of the collectibles market when you are spending money on collectibles and you aren't likely to take them with you when you die (although I've heard stories).

To each his own. Sorry you view this item as the Declaration of Independence. If you want to be the Morality Police of how people should treat their sports collectibles, have fun. Get up on your soap box about how one of Ruth's jerseys has been cut up for more collectors to share and that it is an outrage. It's an easy ruse.

Finally, what the paper fiber of T206 cards has to do with this discussion is beyond me. If it was an attack on me for caring about card condition, it was as misguided as it was irrelevant. 99% of my T206 cards are raw PR-VG condition, including my Magie and Plank, the latter of which was owned by Lionel Carter, Mr. Condition-sensitive himself!

But I will take your advice and "stick to cards" -- I've never been interested in collecting memorabilia anyway. The only cross-over here is that I collect signed pre-war cards.

[HRBAKER]

The only "unique" connection I feel is that I am holding or own something that the player has touched/signed. Nothing more than that to me. As for personalization that is for each person to decide for themselves. It certainly wouldn't keep me from buying something I wanted if it was personalized and I can't see myself trying to remove it afterwards. In rare cases I have bought something just because it was personalized.

[T206Collector]

But, c'mon, David and Jeff.... the two examples you shared of not caring if it was personalized (or wanting it more) were both personalized with your names. Of course the feeling would be different there.

To be clear, obviously a fair number of autograph collectors will still buy something regardless of whether it was personalized to someone else. For me, I'd collect personalized T206 cards every day of the week. But it is also obvious that non-personalized, signed items are in higher demand and appeal to a wider audience.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

But it is also obvious that non-personalized, signed items are in higher demand and appeal to a wider audience.

Fine. If you are willing to pay more for an uninscribed item, more power to you. But don't try to make non-personalized items out of personalized items.

Better condition cards are in higher demand than poor condition cards, but it's an absolute no-no to "improve" the condition of a card. Artifacts should be treated the same way.

[Exhibitman]

If it looks nice pencil is fine with me, and it is often a lot cheaper than ink.

[Michael B]

I see that this old thread has been resurrected by Adam and being a new member I thought I would add my perspective. I personally have no problem with pencil signatures. Sometimes you need to collect what you can find. When I was heavily buying and selling Civil War signatures in the 1980's and early 1990's you rarely had a choice on what you could acquire, especially with generals who were killed in battle. There are a few where the easiest item to acquire is a signed stock certificate or an envelope addressed to their wife as "Mrs. fill in the blank". If you want/need the signature, that is what you accept.

I would not erase any pencil if it was in the persons hand, but if it was in anothers hand and it detracted from what I was interested it I would consider it. The first scan is a case in point. I purchased this album page that was signed by some professional wrestler and David Sheppard. Sheppard won a silver medal in weightlifting at the 1956 Olympics and died in 2000. He is a good signature for Olympic collectors. The wrestler's signature was just about Sheppard's and just touching the 'D' in David. By erasing the other signature I now have a nicely signed album page of a deceased Olympic medalist. Looking closely you can see the remnants of the signature touching the 'D' and the ghost impression of the signature left by the pressure on the paper. Using a photo loupe you can see some disruption of the paper, but it does not detract from the page. I used a Sanford Magic Rub eraser. They are white and non abrasive like artist erasers. Another consideration for pencil signatures: They don't run or fade if wet. If you had a small clip or item glued to another page using one of the old glues, that is animal based, soaking the item in distilled water will not damage the signature. Putting it between two pieces of absorbent paper like paper towels and pressing with any heavy weight or books will prevent rippling. I use an old book press I pulled out of the trash on the sidewalk in Downtown Boston about 25 years ago. Think of the machine used by Uncle Fester in the Addams Family TV show.

As for personalizaiton, I don't like it in person, but if it is an older item I love it as it is additional writing in the hand of the person. Below are three examples from an autograph album I found on ebay. It was owned by a young girl named Sonja who lived in Chicago. After the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles the German Olympic team stayed there overnight on their way to New York to catch an ocean liner back home. She got about 20 signatures of team members in her book. Fortunately the seller had no clue as to what they were other than German signatures. The book include these:

Emil Hirschfeld (1903-1968) - won a bronze medal in shotput 1928. No medal in 1932. Inscribed to Sonja and mentions the Olympics, Chicago, his hometown and is dated

Jochen Buchner (19905-78) - won a bronze medal in the 400m in 1928. No medal in 1932. Great personalized inscription along with a sketch.

Fritz Hendrix (1901-41) - silver medal in Los Angeles in the 4x100m relay. Not personalized, but a great inscription. He was killed on the Russian Front at Leningrad in 1941 while a member of the German Army. His wife also signed the book and competed in 3 Olympics and his daughter won a silver medal in 1964.

[David Atkatz]

No, you are "missing the point." The point is a holograph item, is, in general, an historic artifact. As such, it should not be altered. Period.

The Ruth jersey was not cut up so that "more collectors could share." It was cut up so that Upper Deck would make more money. And it is a totally relevant analogy, as your first point was that the postcard would be worth more (i,e., sell for more) without the word "Nick."

I also collect historical autographs--what many purists would call "real" autograph collecting. (I don't call it that, so don't jump down my throat.) In that realm a simple signature is scorned. The real value is in an item's content and historical importance--letters with "good" content, and historically meaningful documents. Those letters are, of course, addressed to someone, and in almost every case it's someone other than the letter's current owner. In the past, many of these items have been destroyed by people's simply clipping off the signature to obtain "an autograph." Erasing a salutation is the same thing, differing only, perhaps, in degree, but not in kind.

When dealing with an artifact, the rule is "First, do no harm." No museum would consider for an instant the mutilation of a piece. Collectors have the same responsibility towards history.

And if the reference to the card's side almost anal compulsion with condition is beyond you, think a bit harder. You wouldn't dream of changing the condition of a card--any alteration is verboten; treat "autographs' the same way.

[HRBAKER]

No, my point was and is that I have never let the fact that something was personalized keep me from buying it, I have never considered altering it after I did and on rare occasions (such as the one above) havebought something that I would not have otherwise bought solely bc it was personalized.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

No, my point was and is that I have never let the fact that something was personalized keep me from buying it, I have never considered altering it after I did and on rare occasions (such as the one above) havebought something that I would not have otherwise bought solely bc it was personalized.

But you acknowledge that some people stay away from personalized things? And that it would not be surprising that you would have bought something solely because it was personalized if the personalization had your name, right?

Also, again, context is everything. There are about a million Gehrigs on ebay right now. So collectors can be a bit picky about holding out for a non-personalized example. But if there was a signed T206 on ebay personalized to someone, I'd buy it regardless for the same price because it is likely a 1 of 1.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The Ruth jersey was not cut up so that "more collectors could share." It was cut up so that Upper Deck would make more money.

There are many collectors who love it, which is why there was money in it. Profit was generated by the interest in sharing the jersey.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The real value is in an item's content and historical importance--letters with "good" content, and historically meaningful documents.

Absolutely. But that's a different kind of collector. Some people collect single signed, sweet spot balls, and would erase the non-sweet spot second signature. Some people like letters with historical content. Again, to each his own.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

When dealing with an artifact, the rule is "First, do no harm." No museum would consider for an instant the mutilation of a piece. Collectors have the same responsibility towards history.

You are ascribing a moral responsibility to collecting baseball artifacts. If that's your value system, more power to you. I more or less agree with you that "Nick" should not be erased. But I would totally understand and not pass judgment on the person who would.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

And if the reference to the card's side almost anal compulsion with condition is beyond you, think a bit harder. You wouldn't dream of changing the condition of a card--any alteration is verboten; treat "autographs' the same way.

In my post above (#31), I admitted erasing pencil from T206 cards. I do not think that is verboten. I understand some card purists do, but I don't. And both SGC and PSA will grade T206 cards with evidence of erasures. PSA will still give it an MK qualifier, which they would have done even if the pencil had not been erased; and SGC will just grade it an SGC 40 or lower.

And in any event, the reason it must have been "beyond me" is that your original post was not about card alteration, but instead a reference to corner damage, which I still think is irrelevant to this discussion.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

the reason it must have been "beyond me" is that your original post was not about card alteration, but instead a reference to corner damage, which I still think is irrelevant to this discussion.

It is relevant. Why are card guys upset at a bit of corner damage? What do they want? They want the cards to be exactly as they were when they left the factory--any deviation from that lowers the value in their world.

Well, I want a Gehrig autographed item, for example, to be exactly as it was when it left Gehrig's hand.

Just as you're not allowed to trim a card to produce perfect corners--making it (superficially) look "better," so, too, should you not be allowed to remove part of an autograph.

[perezfan]

Great points, and well articulated by both sides. It's an interesting debate, but ultimately there is no right or wrong! That's the beauty of this hobby... collect what you like

[J.McMurry]

ya'll seem to have blurred the "market difference" between modern and vintage autographs.
When buying modern autographs personalization is BAD.
when buying vintage sigs, it's ok(especially Ruths, gehrigs, cobbs, etc.)

It's not a hard and fast rule,but similar to the card market belief that,"prewar must be in a SGC holder, and post war in a PSA holder".

To each his own.